The Indochinese species: INDEX

MARCELLO CATALANO wrote:

Hi Marka,
my website is (unfortunately?) the most taxonomically based thing you can find around about that topic ....but you'll have to explore it properly, not just one or two pages

There's a number of new species that are going to be described in the next few years, some of them have been in cultivation for years and you're probably growing some of those.

At the moment I would say that N. thorelii is not in cultivation.

If you know the location or at least the province your plants come from I can tell you what species they are, new or old. Otherwise we can just guess. For a true key we'll have to wait, I think, a couple more years at most.

Marcello

MARCELLO CATALANO wrote:


Hi Mark, your words were not considered by me offensive not even for a second
It's just that my "easy going" (italian) nature brings me to express myself like a funny punk more than like a serious scientist (which I'm not!); when it comes to writing in a forum, the way of talking is not always well reflected by the written words (and so often I/we write so fast!): the risk I run is to seem offended or to be offensive...but I'm just here to have fun!

Coming to us: The indochinese problem is a mountain. I can't explain the whole mountain - which also seems not very comprehensible by most people - every time that a plant needs to be identified, so usually I report the latest findings and perspectives that can give an idea of the situation.
So, again: these plants are more or less all identical. But each species occupies a specific area, province or territory. You will never find two of these twin species growing in the same area or province (when that RARELY happens, one species grows on the mountain, the other in the lowlands, so that in fact it can't be called "the same area"). That's why having the location means having the identity. Then we have the second problem: this identity belongs to a species that already has a name or to a new species? Nowadays I can tell you that (if I have the location), but still I can't give the name of the new species and ALL their characteristics.

If we don't have a location, we just have a plant that could be any of the 6-7 twin ones. We can exclude one species or two (thanks to the indumentum, leaf shape ...and to my good eye, ah ah!!), but then we are left with another 2-3. Until we don't have these new species properly described we can just guess. And I'm quite sure that half the plants going around as "tiger" are these 1-2 new species (from Phanga and Surat), the other half is probably kampotiana (Trat). But some of these "tiger" for sale could be any of the 6-7 of this messy group. That's because Thai growers just call all their local species "tiger" or "thorelii" or various mixes with these names. You see, the location (that, I know, 98 percent of times the Thai seller won't give you, because he doesn't know or because he doesn't want) is everything!

About N. thorelii: forget about the description on my website, that's food for crazy people like me and François, who spend the night reading those useless words !!! Reading that, you'll just realize that it describes another plant from the twin group.
N. thorelii might be a synonym of smilesii or kampotiana (as Cheek thinks) or a plant that has been forgotten, maybe extinct, that is not in cultivation and that is quite different (as I think and as François is going to prove during his next trip, hopefully!). Of course when I say "different", that's always relative!

Mark, it's the end of the year, make us happy, post some photos of pitchers and leaves of your thai plants, and describe their indumentum and possibly their location. I think we can do a lot with that.

Waiting for a more serious key
Marcello

Dave, there's no way I can find on the web a clear idea of what hyper-foliate means, not even looking at the leaves of N. adnata, which are described as "adnate", while to me they appear just leaves!
(funny thing: the definition of adnate in the dictionary is "attached to another organ, like the petal is attached to the flower or the leaf is attached to the stem", so basically "adnate" means that this particular kind of leaf is not floating in the air by itself).

François, great job as always! But I think the list of recognized, pubblished, accepted and synonyms might be confusing. I would say that if we ONLY want to rely on the latest pubblications (from 10 years ago!) then we just have N. thorelii and anamensis (as you said: for anybody who knows the matter, this classification today is meaningless). All the other names are synonyms or they need to be reinstated or they still have to be described. The mess and the truth are in this second group of names
(by the way, IF geoffrayi is a synonym, I think it's a synonym of kampotiana...).
Marcello

Hi man! I sent you the document. Of course I know that people should know what is official and what is not, I agree with that and I'm not upset; on the contrary, I wanted to make more clear what is official right now, even if it's not much and it's clearly wrong...people could get confused with the terms recognized, synonym, accepted, pubblished etc, so I was just thinking about making a list of "recognized" and a list of "all the others", specifing under each taxon its status...

I'm not even sure about the terms recognized, pubblished and accepted, as they all mean different things and they could include one or more of the above listed species! Maybe instead of "recognized" we should refer to the "official pubblished situation (10 years old)" and to the "unofficial unpubblished situation (present time)" !!!
Marcello

Ah, but unlike other Nepenthes leaves in one special way... The part of the leaf which attaches to the stem goes full way around the stem, so it looks like the stem is growing through the leaf.

Hi Cello ,

I bet he asked you something like: "why not merging all those plants into one variable species" such as N. mirabilis?
If we were to do so, then we would have merge many other taxa as well. I'm thinking of, just among others: hispida / hirsuta of course but also boschiana / faizaliana, angasanensis / mikei, eymae / maxima... rowanae / mirabilis and many others ;D!
We should rethink the whole Nepenthes taxonomy.


François.