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Post by unclemasa on Apr 29, 2008 8:46:10 GMT -10
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Post by rainforest on May 1, 2008 12:40:58 GMT -10
This is a very hot topic indeed. This coupled with the massed tc and seed-raised plants on the scene today, we have a very complicated situation here. If you cross some of these hybrid platy's (those that have fusca in them) you will probably get progeny that could resemble true fusca. Usually species when crossed back to one of its parent's usually will pull strong dominance to that species. Look at all the bical hybrids when crossed back to bical. They all have near perfect fangs even when their parents (hybrid bicals) were "toothless!"
M
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Michael
Urceolatae
"N" for "Nepenthes", that's good enough to me :D
Posts: 20
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Post by Michael on May 1, 2008 12:48:44 GMT -10
Michael, i also have heard about this hybrid mix up. Who has the true species then? Does BE plants are hybrids?
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Post by rsivertsen on May 1, 2008 13:11:22 GMT -10
This is a very hot topic indeed. This coupled with the massed tc and seed-raised plants on the scene today, we have a very complicated situation here. If you cross some of these hybrid platy's (those that have fusca in them) you will probably get progeny that could resemble true fusca. Usually species when crossed back to one of its parent's usually will pull strong dominance to that species. Look at all the bical hybrids when crossed back to bical. They all have near perfect fangs even when their parents (hybrid bicals) were "toothless!" M I think I'll stay out of this argument for now, but want to mention that Nepenthes don't seem to subscribe to classic Mendalian genetic theories, with F2 hybrids back-crossed to one of its parents which should produce a predictable percentage of those characteristics manifest to that parent species. Furthermore, about ten years ago, there were two growers here in the USA, (some several thousand miles apart), both had N. bical in flower, one having a male, the other had a female plant; and no other Nepenthes were in flower at the time. The male raceme was overnight shipped to the grower with the female plant for pollination. Several years later, 100% of the seedlings showed signs of being various hybirds involving N. bical, N. amp, N. raff, N. gracilis, and possibly N. mirabilis! Not a SINGLE seedling grew out to a true N. bical. I mentioned this to someone in Germany, who replied that by coincidence, that a similar experience had occurred there too! Food for thought. - Rich |
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Post by phissionkorps on May 1, 2008 13:24:58 GMT -10
The BE plants are from seed. Some are the species, some are hybrids. I think it's impossible (or nearly so) to collect wild seed and not have a single hybrid.
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Post by rsivertsen on May 1, 2008 13:39:26 GMT -10
The BE plants are from seed. Some are the species, some are hybrids. I think it's impossible (or nearly so) to collect wild seed and not have a single hybrid. Interesting statement! which has implications on other threads here as well. The seeds I received from John Turnbull were from isolated populations that seemed fairly uniform and stable, just to avoid this controversy. - Rich |
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Post by rainforest on May 1, 2008 14:10:06 GMT -10
"The seeds I received from John Turnbull were from isolated populations that seemed fairly uniform and stable, just to avoid this controversy." There is no such thing as an isolated population being devoid of pollinators from other species that can manifest themselves from plants many miles away. There have been species populations with hybrids growing side by side in the wild without any evidence of the other parent as a true species anywhere in sight. N. Alisaputrana is a prime example. It is always found near isolated populations of N. burbidgeae without a rajah in sight. You never see N. Alisaputrana pop out from a population of rajahs!
I have heard this Urban Legend regarding the bical situation. I do not know of any living examples of the progeny resulting from this breeding, but I would imagine that while an entire spike was cut and shipped, it would still not be possible for any more than a few flowers to have pollen for pollinating from this event. I would also say that pollen from other flowering plants in the same vicinity would also account for the mixed pollination. It is hard for me to believe from two "pure" bicals do we find such a vast array of bical x ampullaria, bical x rafflesiana, bical x gracilis, -appearing seedlings to occur from the same pollinations. The offspring would be somewhat homogenous among all siblings.
Regarding N. platychila, ep do seem to be on the right track regarding what they feel is N. platychila and what is a hybrid. They are masters of hybrids, so their word would be proof enough that some hybrid populations exist in what is being sold as platychila.
M
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Post by rsivertsen on May 1, 2008 14:19:39 GMT -10
Hey rainforest,
Thanks for your input!
Highland Nepenthes species are isolated not only by distance, but also by elevation which posts several other barriers to pollinators who might otherwise contaminate a gene pool population.
Having said that, I also want to mention that I've personally observed Sarr. and even Dros hybrids where one or even both of the parent plants were nowhere near the same locations. Yet their pollinators were still in the same environment/niche and habitat. Habitats change.
Perhaps a closer look into what is "acceptable" with regard to genetic drift within a species population, such as Nepenthes is in order.
As for the N. bical pollination, by mail, I'm sure that you're aware that a single anther can pollinate several stigmas and that a raceme can be productive after being removed from the plant.
One more can 'o worms (LOL), N. dubia has been considered a natural hybrid between N. inermis and N. talangensis for some time, even speculated the possibility in Danser's paper. John Turnbull told me that after many hours of searching the habitats described, only scattered and isolated plants were found, and NO "mother load" of a populations was never found, which supports the theory of it being a hybrid of the two; but enough for now.
- Rich
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Post by rainforest on May 1, 2008 14:54:25 GMT -10
"Having said that, I also want to mention that I've personally observed Sarr. and even Dros hybrids were one or even both of the parent plants where nowhere near the same locations. Yet their pollinators were still in the same environment/niche and habitat."
This is my example with regards to "isolated" pure populations as having hybrids nearby.
The pollination of these plants may also occur even as a chance occurrence of a bird perching along a spike of males flowers seeking beetles or other insects that might also be found on some other female spike with receptive stigmas. Thus pollination by a process not intended for specific pollinators of a particular insect species.
Moths and butterflies also travel great distances and have been known to cover great distances seeking nectar sources. Their chance pollination is again not intended to be nepenthes species specific, but rather secondary to nectar.
M
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Post by rsivertsen on May 1, 2008 15:40:00 GMT -10
"Having said that, I also want to mention that I've personally observed Sarr. and even Dros hybrids were one or even both of the parent plants where nowhere near the same locations. Yet their pollinators were still in the same environment/niche and habitat." This is my example with regards to "isolated" pure populations as having hybrids nearby. The pollination of these plants may also occur even as a chance occurrence of a bird perching along a spike of males flowers seeking beetles or other insects that might also be found on some other female spike with receptive stigmas. Thus pollination by a process not intended for specific pollinators of a particular insect species. Moths and butterflies also travel great distances and have been known to cover great distances seeking nectar sources. Their chance pollination is again not intended to be nepenthes species specific, but rather secondary to nectar. M Hey rainforest, I'm NOT disagreeing with your speculation! Pollination vectors are not at all described, studied, nor understood; neither is seed distribution, creatures and mechanisms in this genus. And, in this wind, wish to point out the traits of N. argentii, and then take a closer look at N. sibuyanensis and N. bellii, and rethink your thoughts along these lines. Just more cans 'o worms and food for thought! - Rich |
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Post by rainforest on May 1, 2008 17:09:16 GMT -10
N. argentii is somewhat a newly discovered species. The Sibuyan Mountains holds promise of being a rich source for new nepenthes species (as are many other unexplored mountains and islands in the Philippines). This region has not been fully explored and I would say many many more species will be found here. N. argentii and sibuyanensis are recent finds. There is a lot more to be seen here.
In regards to sibuyanensis and bellii, they are close in appearance, but not in proximity. N. bellii has a closer affinity to N. merrilliana and perhaps could be introgressed with it since prehistoric times. N. alata also grows abundantly with merrilliana and hybrids of these two along with multi-generational hybrids among these co-exist in populations that defy visual hybridization.
The difference with N. platychila is not that they are growing in widely separated regions, but rather that they are growing side by side.
M
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