nepnut
Urceolatae
Nuts about Neps
Posts: 18
|
Post by nepnut on Oct 19, 2009 19:46:08 GMT -10
Guys... lets get back to the main topic shall we?? Shawn, Thanks for pointing me to the right direction... ;D I feel what you're doing is noble and for anything to be respected and taken seriouly in Thailand, getting the involvement of Royal family is very crucial. You all will be surprise how influential the King have on Thais especially the rural Thai people and this is where most wild neps can still be found in Thailand. However, how you're going to approach the Royal family... that I would like to see... ;D When you deal with matters regarding Thailand, the best is still to get the involvement of Thais. They live and work there and it's their home. Sad to say but your higness King Bhumibol Adulyadej, is now in bad health. Cello, Your buying up lands and fencing it up is a immediate but short term solution. I still feel what Shawn is trying to do is for the long term solution. If the nep population you're trying to protect have high commercial value, fencing with barb wires will only deter the regular folks, not those determined to collect what's behind the fence. Trust me, I know how far determined ppl would go if they really wanted to steal in Malaysia. For low valued commercial neps or common neps like N. mirabilis, your idea will probably work, again, probably for you and my life time if you really did a good planning. Still, that's only what you and others outside of Thailand can do for the neps in Thailand and this is takes a lot of effort, time and money. I feel for a long term solution is to educate the locals specially the younger generation. Everyone here have a good point, I feel the best is to combine all feasible ideas from various ppl and work out a way where it can really help the preservation of wild neps. It'll have to be a multi-prong effort shared by many to get a more effective solution and result, not just your way, my way or the highway... ;D Please be aware, I'm from Malaysia not from Thailand eventhough I live only 1 hr drive from the Thai- Malaysia border Rob
|
|
Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
|
Post by Dave Evans on Oct 19, 2009 21:04:40 GMT -10
What does this have to do with nepenthes? Can someone explain this to me in simple terms so I can see what the message of how dinosaur bones (extinct sp) has to do with a plant that is not YET extinct. I hope you don't go into detail of these "1000 faces" as most people want to hear what you need to say in less than a thousand words (according to known sources). What Marcello is saying is, sure we can make huge repositories for Nepenthes, but if the knowledge about them isn't maintained, such a repository is no better than a big pile of bones. Which is what most dinosaur collections look like. Most fossils haven't even been ID'ed or ID'ed correctly. They sit there year after year in the dark with a collection tag and bogus ID. Same problem for Nepenthes. Longwood Gardens and perhaps Kew don't even seem able to correctly ID Nepenthes species, with Nepenthes alata labeled as "N. stenophylla" and "N. burkei" (different clones of the same species sitting right next to each other, each with a different name!!!) while the smooth "alata" gets labeled as "boschiana". These are expert institutions! If they aren't reliable to make correct ID's while having access to a library that has all the information needed to make the correct ID's on a couple of plants, can they and other institutions be relied upon to take part in large scale ex-situ conservation plans? Perhaps ID'ing living animal species and keeping track of which is what ex-situ is simply much easier...
|
|
Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
|
Post by Dave Evans on Oct 19, 2009 21:29:47 GMT -10
Guys... lets get back to the main topic shall we?? Dear Rob, living in New Jersey I've met several folks from Thailand and none of them had even heard of Nepenthes. They sure do love their King, BTW. Same for Filipinos, I show them plants and tell them where they came from; and they are simply amazed that these plants are from their homeland and then wonder why they never heard of them before. Some people are just casually interested; while others are hungry for more information. Even reading Clarke's and McPherson's books. I think Shawn's plan to teach children about Nepenthes is a great idea. Everything we do in this generation can be build upon by the next generation, or taken apart. We have no direct control over the future, but the children do.
|
|
nepnut
Urceolatae
Nuts about Neps
Posts: 18
|
Post by nepnut on Oct 19, 2009 21:58:14 GMT -10
Dave, Yes, only by raising awareness and to educate the general public we at least stand a chance to make that happend.
Please know that when I said a "mutil-prong" approach, I meant for various efforts to proceed at the same time and compliment each other. For example,
- Shawn's idea to educate the young (long term) - Cello's idea to set up a private refuge (short term) - etc...
but not forgetting (what Cello and others were already doing)
- field work to document and access the current wild nep habitat and distribution - spread seeds and cuttings among hobbyist around the world (not commercially) - etc...
I hope by combination of the above mentioned points, the demand for a wild collected nep from Thailand will be lower. Since most Thai neps species are relatively vigorous and easy to flower. Eventually, ppl will just buy the species plant produced by nuseries or private breeder that have desireable traits that can't be found with wild collected neps. I think we're already seeing this trend with N. globosa aka Viking in Thailand.
Rob
|
|
|
Post by shawnintland on Oct 20, 2009 2:20:23 GMT -10
Phil - Thanks for the good wishes! I am slowly going to leak out details of various 'projects' I am attempting to get going over here concerning conserving the subjects of our favorite hobby. I'm glad to see others starting to participate in this discussion. It seems a good place to throw ideas out on the table and get some feedback. Hopefully we won't get too sidetracked in some of our conflicting opinions (hey, I'm as guilty as the next guy!) and can come up with some creative and workable solutions. As well as each of our separate approaches, I'm sure there are some common-ground ways forward.
To be a little more honest here... I have been very reluctant to publicize my 'attempts' due to the fact that doing so can tend to slow things down while 'consensus' is reached, and at my age that could be lethal to a project of this nature! But I also want the inputs of other people, particularly as what I set in motion I would hope will continue on long after I am fertilizing some other species of plants that need the nutrients!
Dave - The schools project is just one little side aspect that popped into my head when I was asked to host a group of university botany and horticulture students at my nursery. The interest level, intelligent questions and desire to return blew me away. A second time a group of friends' children stopped by and although I was probably visibly trembling, I allowed them to cruise the main greenhouse - same reactions! I've located a Foundation that deals with educational projects in Thailand and hope to work through them to put a tough little N. mirabilis in as many classrooms as possible. But that's just the start! As I recently wrote to someone, "Maybe the ears, whiskers and head, but I'm not letting the whole cat out of the bag just yet!"
Regarding the Thai's not being familiar with Neps... I'll bet if you reminded them about their grandma's recipe for Khao Neo (Sticky rice) cooked in coconut milk and packed into Nep pitchers for steaming, a few would suddenly recall where they have seen them before!
Rob - thanks again! Hee, hee, hee - I've been working on this 'approach' with the Royals for a while now. It is a bit difficult for a Farang, but you'd be surprised (no, on second thought you probably wouldn't be) at all the little interconnections in Thailand! There is always somebody whose brother married their neighbor who is the daughter of so and so's lawyer who works for the palace in the Privy Council! Again, I am concerned to let someone else attempt to portray my ideas/dreams, so while it may take a little longer I am willing to do the running around.
I've sent messages to Charles Clarke and Ch'ien Lee, among others, inviting them to join our discussions if they can find the time. I think there are probably some aspects of our ideas that could benefit from their input. Meanwhile it's nice to keep coming back to find more people joining this discussion. Thanks everyone!
|
|
|
Post by Marcello Catalano on Oct 20, 2009 5:04:25 GMT -10
Thanks everybody for keeping the discussion alive, that is the first step. Thanks Dave for explaining RF Rob and Shawn, I see the limits of my and your points, and agree on the fact that having many ideas is better than just one, and we can cross them etc. I'll work easily on that. But let's also make clear what we're talking about, or we go too far from the topic and our enthusiasm becomes useless: -N. kampotiana: only one colony left in Thailand (other 4-5 are gone in the last 4-5 years), with N. mirabilis and hybrids; it's inside a rural area, just behind a field used to feed cows. What are we doing about that? You want to educate children so in 10 years they will know what a Nepenthes is? -N. kongkandana: 4-5 colonies left, each one with less than 50-100 plants. All in rural areas or among plantations. They will be gone in 1-2 years. What are we going to do? -N. sp. Pangà : lots of colonies in a place that is soon going to be covered with resorts. Here we have a bit more time, the place is quite huge. I would say 5-10 years. -N. sp. Surat: only one colony known so far, among plantations in rural area. Maybe a few years? What to do? -N. Viking: see N. sp. Pangà . Here. At least we talk of facts The seeds of all these plants are in cultivation, and will be available worldwide probably in 1-2 years, so I wouldn't worry too much about the above mentioned point 1 (conservation through cultivation). No barbed wire? Sure? Ok, then let's try with secondary colonies, I like that. Now, the safest place for secondary colonies is on the mountains, where rural areas don't arrive, and that are often protected areas (that host - for this reason - many hidden areas). Secondary colonies in private properties might sound good, but within a short time the owners will get rid of our plants and will grow crops, much more convenient.
|
|
|
Post by rainforest on Oct 20, 2009 7:12:24 GMT -10
This is a goal of mine that I feel my rantings and ravings has accomplished. So for those who feel a thousand words is too much, get over it! The idea of conservation is not a single entity. The foremost strongest link is one where a plant or group of plants are connected with an individual. Only through a dedicated individual can you attempt to keep it alive. Large commercial nurseries, far wider land holding rare plants has no way to attempt to maintain any population better than an individual. The program of captive breeding begins with the individual. Through forums such as this, people can converse and trade pollen/seeds, and information regarding a favorite species. Commercial nurseries only visualizes the profits and losses of keeping a species available for sale. Only the faddest plants will be kept and propagated.
The reason why N. lowii has such a poor rate of success is because all the plants are tc clones and clones of weak individuals. So many plants of what we know as species are represented by weak tc individuals that major conclusions are drawn based on this. This is the same rant that we need more seed originals paving the path to survival of a species. Not more tc clones disseminating the "bad" species to replace it.
M
|
|
Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
|
Post by Dave Evans on Oct 20, 2009 8:24:14 GMT -10
The reason why N. lowii has such a poor rate of success is because all the plants are tc clones and clones of weak individuals. So many plants of what we know as species are represented by weak tc individuals that major conclusions are drawn based on this. This is the same rant that we need more seed originals paving the path to survival of a species. Not more tc clones disseminating the "bad" species to replace it. Dear Michael, I'm not trying to make a hobby of disagreeing with you, but I haven't ever tried growing a TC'ed N. lowii. They have all been seed grown and they are the most difficult species I have ever come across. Ditto for the people who sent the seed. They had a many more plants than me and now I'm down a couple and they don't have any. This has nothing to do with Tissue Culture and everything to do with not understanding or being able to provide the correct conditions.
|
|
|
Post by sockhom on Oct 20, 2009 9:22:58 GMT -10
Hello, I know many European growers who have grown their TC lowii to maturity here (at least they have obtained those fabulous uppers). I can post pictures if you want but some of these growers are already members here. So enough with that childish rant on TC vs Seedgrown. This is a goal of mine that I feel my rantings and ravings has accomplished. So for those who feel a thousand words is too much, get over it! M Michael, do you think you are Jesus or some kind of prophete or what? Come on!! If sooo many people think like you or share your opinions, let them speak themselves. Back to the topic. I think it is indeed important to educate children but still, we need a short term solution. Some species will be wiped in the 2-5 following years so I'm not shocked (nor amused) by the wire fence idea. Get a private land or better, establish a secundary colony are good ideas. Doing something, even in the short time, is much more better than complaining that there's nothing to do. I see that some species have been registered on the IUCN redlist. Does someone know if this is really useful? Truly, François.
|
|
|
Post by Marcello Catalano on Oct 21, 2009 5:09:36 GMT -10
Together with Shawn and Trong we're now talking privately about the details, but starting from NOW and proceeding fast in the next few months - I'll be there "live" to help during my next trip to Thailand - we are organizing the secondary colonies for the above mentioned species. They will be placed in protected, isolated areas (of course thanks to the local authorities that Shawn seems to be in contact with), very hidden and, ESPECIALLY, faaaaaar from the all-hibridizing-weed N. mirabilis The plan is good, now let's see if it can be put in practice fast enough.
|
|
|
Post by philgreen on Oct 21, 2009 7:42:48 GMT -10
we are organizing the secondary colonies for the above mentioned species. They will be placed in protected, isolated areas (of course thanks to the local authorities that Shawn seems to be in contact with), very hidden and, ESPECIALLY, faaaaaar from the all-hibridizing-weed N. mirabilis The plan is good, now let's see if it can be put in practice fast enough. Fantastic news. Good on you Guys. Do let us know if there is anything the rest of us (not able to be there) can do to help.
|
|
|
Post by Marcello Catalano on Oct 22, 2009 4:36:57 GMT -10
Well, Thailand is just a small bit. If anybody of you has a favourite group of species within the genus, or a favourite Country (Philippines, Malaysia, Borneo...), the thing is: -see which species are in the worse, more dramatic danger -find on the forums some nep growers from those Countries to exchange opinions -make a plan all together to create these secondary colonies, which is the plan that most people seem to agree about Pet-pitcher, if I'm not wrong is full of people from the tropics, and with tropics I mean the Countries where Nepenthes grow (not Florida ...
|
|
|
Post by sockhom on Oct 22, 2009 6:43:11 GMT -10
Cello,
Of course I share your enthusiasm and your ideas but how do you decide that a land is good for the a secundary colony? Of course, you will check that the ecology will be similar but is there a faint chance that the introduction of a Nepenthes species can be detrimental to another species of (non carnivorous) plant/organism? I know this is a cliché but still, I wonder...
François.
|
|
|
Post by trongtham on Oct 22, 2009 7:05:33 GMT -10
Hi, all of you I'm Trong that Marcello said, I'm Thai and love Nepenthes like you now I'm talking about resevation with Shawn and Marcello and fallowing this discussion too. every idea is great, we will do most of them (short and long situations). we will show if there are some advance
|
|
|
Post by Marcello Catalano on Oct 22, 2009 7:11:55 GMT -10
I/we can try to make sure as much as it's humanly possible. People who want to argue will bring on - as usual - the example of rabbits in Australia etc. As far as I know, when cp have been introduced in secondary colony, they basically survived as small colonies. The only exception being S. purpurea ssp. purpurea in some place that I can't remember, where it became a weed - but how can be that damaging I don't know. Nepenthes - a part from mirabilis - are not real weeds. On the contrary. Especially in Thailand they live in isolated colonies right because their habitat is so "specific" that they won't survive anywhere else. That's why the difficulties we will have are more on finding a place where they can survive. But what we are talking about is 20 square meters of secondary colony created 60 km from the mother colony, in a safe place; nothing more than that. We are not bringing N. mirabilis in Florida, for example, as that would really bring unknown consequences...
|
|