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Post by osmosis on Apr 23, 2008 9:39:54 GMT -10
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Post by phissionkorps on Apr 23, 2008 10:14:56 GMT -10
Does the appendage not develop until later, or am I missing something?
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Post by osmosis on Apr 23, 2008 10:48:51 GMT -10
I assure you I have been waiting with bated breath on that very point. Only time will tell. Or is it another hybrid  Does the appendage not develop until later, or am I missing something? |
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Post by phissionkorps on Apr 23, 2008 11:01:57 GMT -10
The description says there is a "lack of putative parents" which "excludes the possibility of natural hybrids". I'm not saying this is a hybrid (at this point anyway), but I think its VERY clear at this point that every time a plant doesn't match description, it's certainly not "just" natural variation. As I've been saying for about a year, bees will carry pollen up to 2km in a single day. The fact that we continue to see plants which are far from description with no sympatric species only strengthens this point, IMO.
I don't know if it's just how you took the photos, but your plant doesn't appear to have a spur? The description says, "spur inserted 0.5 cm from base of lid, to
1.5 cm long, flattened and branched near the tip into up to 3 distinct points". Can you get a shot of it maybe?
The lid looks more orbicular than "broadly triangular" to me. It'd be great if you could also get a nice macro of the underside of the lid.
The description does not make any mention of the appendage only being seen on adult plants. Surely there were juvenile plants at the location which were studied as well?
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Post by osmosis on Apr 23, 2008 11:12:02 GMT -10
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Post by phissionkorps on Apr 23, 2008 12:04:21 GMT -10
I look forward to it. The lid should be completely and totally devoid of glands according to the description. So if there is even a hint of a gland or two.....
On the topic of the spur, I agree with you it would be wise to reserve judgment until the pitchers are a bit bigger. However, I don't know if spurs take a while to develop. Usually anything of mine that will have a spur has it at an extremely small pitcher size (1"? Haven't taken measurements).
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Post by longor on Apr 23, 2008 21:31:55 GMT -10
i didnt see any juvenile lingulata there, it was either a mature plant or seedlings, tiny seedlings. i didn't see the "elephants trunk" on the seedlings, but that is porbably as expected from immature pitchers.
as for hybrid, is very quite possible considering there is 3 species growing at the same location, Jamban, Lingulata, and Sp 2 (rhombicaulis lookalike).
personally i would expect at least a hint of an apandage at that size.
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Post by longor on Apr 23, 2008 21:34:42 GMT -10
spur and tongue clearly visible on mature pitchers  your seedling isn't displaying either characteristic |
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Post by osmosis on Apr 24, 2008 11:27:16 GMT -10
As promised, lid shots   |
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Post by phissionkorps on Apr 24, 2008 11:41:18 GMT -10
I've placed a link to this discussion in the proper section of the taxonomy boards.
Can you tell if there are glands under the lid? I can't tell.
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Post by tonyc on Apr 26, 2008 2:43:30 GMT -10
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Post by osmosis on Apr 26, 2008 4:13:43 GMT -10
That is a superb plant tonyc, how big are the pitchers?
I also had a good look at mine and whilst too small to photograph I am also sure there are no glands.
So - we are at least consistent.
If I got to the end of this growing season and there was still not sign of the appendage I might start to worry, until then since no-one can offer any evidence to the contrary I will assume as I have up until now, that the appendage only appears on larger plants
Dave
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Post by tonyc on Apr 26, 2008 7:44:58 GMT -10
The largest pitcher is just over 70mm from tendril insert to highest point of lid.
I agree, if I don't see an appendage or spur in twelve month's time I'll start worrying, but then again this is a new species. If anyone posts a pic showing an appendage on a very young plant I'll reconsider my views but until then the jury is still out as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by rainforest on Apr 26, 2008 9:49:16 GMT -10
I'm curious how far this species is found from N. izumiae? Without the spur, it could also be N. izumiae. I would imagine the spur to be at least found as a rudimentary hair or something. Even N. bicals on a very very tiny pitcher has the fangs showing.
I look forward to the signs of that spur/tongue.
What worries me the most is if these are tc clones, then everyone will have the same species or hybrid. Look at the mishap of N. platychila do you own the real platychila or the introgressed hybrid? And if we all call both of them "true species"of N. platychila, then the mixed introgressed N. ramispina/macfarlanei/sanguinea are all the same species too then.
M
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Post by sockhom on Apr 26, 2008 10:52:58 GMT -10
What worries me the most is if these are tc clones, then everyone will have the same species or hybrid. Dear Michael, If my memory serves me right, the lingulata which have been sold the last few months are indeed TC plants but the plants from the first batch are seed grown plants (same for jamban and hamata "hairy"). I thus think both tonyc and Dave have seedgrown plants. Ch'ien Lee notes that lingulata is indeed related to izumiae. I don't know about the appendage but my young N. chaniana has 10 cm long pitchers and it just began to develop a visible crest under the lid. Friendly, François. |
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