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Post by idontlikeforms on Jan 6, 2010 9:21:28 GMT -10
I wonder if what we hobbyists have been calling "hybrid vigor" isn't just in fact normal seed grown vigor and we've failed to make the connection. Or perhaps there really is such a thing as "hybrid vigor" but it is no where near as pronounced a phenomenon and really the main reason hybrids are growing more vigorously is because they have a proper root system and are robuster just like a species SG Nep and the additional "hybrid vigor" is really a smaller factor.
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Post by rsivertsen on Jan 6, 2010 9:58:56 GMT -10
Hybrid vigor is in fact a reality and well documented, I've also seen it myself even in TC origin plants as well as seed grown. - Rich
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Post by rainforest on Jan 6, 2010 10:41:37 GMT -10
Great comeback Sam!
First of all, I'm not a drinker, but if anyone of you talkers want to jump in a ring and have a swig in MMA, I'd be more than obliged for the workout. Or even a bout in Gracie JJ that would be fine.
Sockholm seems to only appear after words have been exchanged where he can add his two cents. Lesbian perhaps a bit harsh, but try calling Sean Penn an air guitar and see what his response might be. I guess lesbian isn't so harsh, especially since the only contribution was in defense for marshmello, (I meant marcello, sorry). Sockholm (aka Cartman) this is my section of the forum where if someone wants to ask me a question or get some advice I don't need to hear a trouble maker (hence Cartman) adding to the situation. I truly apologize for calling you a lesbian. That would be an insult to lesbians and I know a few who wouldn't take that remark kindly after reading your posts. But when you combine a shrew-vocalizating just adding insult to injury, lesbian was the first thing that popped into my mind. I did get a lot of pm's and emails that thought I hit it on the head with that statement though. Strangely, it seems that these posts attract (not chase away) more hits than "will the real thorelii please be counted" type threads. Wake up I don't chase away, I attract. Gambling is definitely not your thing so don't ever bet! I brought you here and of course DE as well too! So "run away" is a poor choice of words.
As for BE holding vast numbers of stock plants for making seed they already do. I'd just like to see him put them to good use in making seed species as well as hybrids. Seed making is already happening on smaller scales in greater numbers in private collectors, why can't BE, AW, MT follow this path? It wouldn't be much of an investment since they already house and hold onto these plants. We all seen MT's edwardsiana, and many one of a kind species plants, we've seen the boasted show photos of so many rare species, and back at the nursery shots of striped veitchii's in beds of so many, yet none of these have been put to use other than for showing. We've seen BE's giant boschianas, great maximas, giant hamatas, all selected clones not a tc clone among them, yet we see these only used in hybrids. What a shame and waste (in my opinion). This would be like having a showroom of fast cars and never driving them.
The question was about rootball size and success ratio. For those who grows them well, that's not my gripe. My gripe was in reference to the later stages of their development when they spike or mature with uppers. I have grown tc plants well (in a plastic bubble), and once they left it, things went downhill. If your tc plants are in a perfect chamber, tank and environment where they mimic a flask or test tube, then this topic has little to do with you. But if you're growing them in a natural setting, outdoors or among plants in a green house or bench, I believe you'll side with my rants.
TC plants are really different than seed originals. I have grown so many in both categories, I am making these statements based on what I have found. I am hoping to help others before they get to the point of blaming their cultivation skills not the plants. In this portion of the forum, I will hope to help others before making a big investment and time spent on growing these plants to maturity. I believe with constant voicing that you want seed grown and making this clear to resellers, growers, and even bigger nurseries they just have to listen. For the longest time some people wanted organic produce,
M
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Post by sockhom on Jan 6, 2010 11:02:00 GMT -10
Sockholm seems to only appear after words have been exchanged where he can add his two cents. Lesbian perhaps a bit harsh, but try calling Sean Penn an air guitar and see what his response might be. I guess lesbian isn't so harsh, especially since the only contribution was in defense for marshmello, (I meant marcello, sorry). Sockholm (aka Cartman) this is my section of the forum where if someone wants to ask me a question or get some advice I don't need to hear a trouble maker (hence Cartman) adding to the situation. I truly apologize for calling you a lesbian. That would be an insult to lesbians and I know a few who wouldn't take that remark kindly after reading your posts. But when you combine a shrew-vocalizating just adding insult to injury, lesbian was the first thing that popped into my mind. I did get a lot of pm's and emails that thought I hit it on the head with that statement though. Strangely, it seems that these posts attract (not chase away) more hits than "will the real thorelii please be counted" type threads. Wake up I don't chase away, I attract. Gambling is definitely not your thing so don't ever bet! I brought you here and of course DE as well too! So "run away" is a poor choice of words. Wow, that hurts! I'm suprised you can mumble all those words and still breathe ;D Indeed you attract so much that I feel like I'm falling in love like all your ghost followers (where are they???). Sincerely, I really feel that you just crave for attention, like a spoiled kid, and this forum is the last place where you can get it (thank you Uncle Sam ). You're the only one who cares to make hit posts and really, I feel sorry for you. You need some intensive mental care, mate. Oup, sorry, that would be an insult for the mentally illed . Stop calling me names, you're just embarassing yourself . Sam, I hope you do enjoy this thread now. If this is the kind of free speech you were searching for, you've hit the jackpot! Congrats! Truly, the best Nepenthes site on the web ;D. François. PS: Oh, and sorry to spoil this "new" topic (SG is better than TC) but don't you expect me to remain silent each time you will call me names, I will just behave like a kid and reply back. This is fun!
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Post by rainforest on Jan 6, 2010 11:25:23 GMT -10
Socky (ouch that was harsh name calling ) , I don't have to prove anything to you. I do have my following and just because you don't see anyone here, trust me my pm box is always full. ;D Most people who have pm'd me have always gotten a response or at least a referral or whatever rapidly in return ;D. Some days when I get to this forum, I am only in PM since so many people asks so many questions . I have said to Sam that I was planning to set up my own site so people can direct their questions there and have their questions posted so others can get their similar/same questions answered and read. I would also like to formally address a definite presence on the web showing problems related to tc origin plants. ;)This is still in the works as so many others want a similar site to post their findings and thoughts without being persecuted by forum nazi's for saying their say . ;D ;D ;D There is a lot of manifestations going on here other than ghosts . I have been working with a lot of individuals in creating a species seed original bank of species from seed program . Sharing and giving and just getting back pollen, seeds or having them share their genetic materials with others who are in the same goal. Unfortunately you won't see them volunteer as I asked these so-called ghosts not to mention this/me or their involvement with me . Only YOU need a show of hands or a long list of names to prove your point . Not necessarily here and things go on even without your approval or disapproval . Don't you have a forum section that awaits your presence? Is't there any scientific discussion and breakthroughs in the plight of N. thorelii that needs addressing? Perhaps Cello-Fame needs to start a new thread on "The thoughts of like-minded thorelii-acs who gives a damn," thread to perhaps provide us of some new ideas about this group. I'll just sit here discussing topics like cultivation, fertilizing techniques, the reasons why tc plants will harm the nepenthes race and so on ;D. Topics that have a low interest rate for so many . Plus having been said by yours truly, would need a good pair of shoes to make a fast run away . So go back to your idealistic thoughts and short thread postings since nothing arrives anywhere but gibberish short falls. As for fame-seeking or needing attention. If only I had more time to put that on my wish list too! It must be nice for you to be on a thread where so many people are reading your posts. Imagine that! ;D M * excessive use of avatars for those with serious poor expression mechanism response in no way suggests that they be viewed as serious expressions of loss of words or poor communicating skills.
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Post by sockhom on Jan 6, 2010 11:36:56 GMT -10
Hi Michael, This is still in the works as so many others want a similar site to post their findings and thoughts without being persecuted by forum nazi's for saying their say. M Funny how you use this word each time someone dares to contradict you. There is a lot of manifestations going on here other than ghosts. I have been working with a lot of individuals in creating a species seed original bank of species from seed program. Sharing and giving and just getting back pollen, seeds or having them share their genetic materials with others who are in the same goal. Unfortunately you won't see them volunteer as I asked these so-called ghosts not to mention this/me or their involvement with me. M You achieved nothing real as far as I can see. Loads of virtual presence indeed via long posts (their lenght prove your intelligence, we all can see that) but nothing consistent. Air guitar, just like I said . I was planning to set up my own site so people can direct their questions there and have their questions posted so others can get their similar/same questions answered and read. M Oh please, do that. Do create your own site. * excessive use of avatars for those with serious poor expression mechanism response in no way suggests that they be viewed as serious expressions of loss of words or poor communicating skills. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D buy seed original ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D François.
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Post by walterg on Jan 6, 2010 13:59:40 GMT -10
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Jan 6, 2010 14:57:16 GMT -10
The question was about rootball size and success ratio. For those who grows them well, that's not my gripe. My gripe was in reference to the later stages of their development when they spike or mature with uppers. I have grown tc plants well (in a plastic bubble), and once they left it, things went downhill. If your tc plants are in a perfect chamber, tank and environment where they mimic a flask or test tube, then this topic has little to do with you. But if you're growing them in a natural setting, outdoors or among plants in a green house or bench, I believe you'll side with my rants. None of my plants are in a bubble. In fact, I've become convinced that keeping plants like Drosera and Nepenthes in sealed tanks weakens them greatly and makes for very easily stressed plants. All my plants are either in open tanks with lights right above; or in dough trays sitting in water with baffles around the tray to slightly buffer the humidity upward. Nothing is ever sealed up, unless I'm making cuttings. So Michael, without adding in a bunch of fantasies about how half the suppliers in the world have a conspiracy to inflate prices by supplying cheap plants, could you explain what about TC you think causes these issues? I think some folk doing TC might be using the wrong recipes. Too much of hormone X version A, or perhaps even too little, might somehow be jamming the gene-expression regulators in the DNA. Clearly different labs produce different quality TC plants and plantlets. I never heard of any issues about plants from Best Carnivores. And when Borneo Exotics is able to, I'm sure they would prefer moving more species into seed produce lines as well. Everyone supplies seed grown plants when ever they get the chance. Like I've mentioned in the past, if you have this amazing wealth of knowledge about flowering and growing from seeds, where are the seeds and plants you are producing by following your own advice? People in several countries are growing and distributing plants locally from species seeds I've made in my small collection. I used to send things to TC labs, but now it just seems redundant; by the time the plantlets are available there will just be some more seed available. So tell me, do you really contribute more than hot air? I'll just say this one more time, Michael everyone knows seed growing is better than TC; even the people who invented and run TC labs. Who are you informing? People that don't grow plants? Hybrid vigor is related to the heterozygous nuclear DNA in the F1 generation. Apparently, it fades in subsequent generations as the DNA become more mixed and less heterozygous. I haven't really studied it much though, as I focus on growing species.
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Post by rainforest on Jan 7, 2010 9:39:14 GMT -10
Dave, Where ever there's sh*t there's flies and finally you. I knew someone was missing to the naysayer's group, now we're complete! But your posts always makes me think, makes me think of things like why a round pizza comes in a square box. Or if kamekaze pilots wear helmets, or if they use sterilized needles for death by lethal injections, or if man evolved from chimps then why are there still chimps? Or, that corn oil is made from corn, and baby oil made from.. or that electricity comes from electrons and in your case morality comes from morons. Now what were you saying? I wouldn't use an analogy of something you do not have a clue in as you made no sense other than hot air leaking out of a hot air balloon (with the same sound that is emitted as well). Can someone explain to me what Dave has said since it sounds that he is in agreement to what I have been saying all along. Curious minds want to know why you didn't send seeds for originals and tc labs BOTH! Dave, why do you have to put your two cents in but it's only a penny for your thoughts? What happened to that extra penny? Just because your plants isn't covered doesn't mean that you qualify as an non-bubble cultivated grower, come on your plants are still in a bubble of constant conditions. Your plants are still in a bubble, the only difference is that you share that space (air space) with it too! You made no sense as growers who grows plants in natural conditions all seem to have differing opinions to the contrary. Cartman, We love your art. Glad you're able to offer something. If not nepenthes information, then Art 101 it shall be! (you're showing your true colors to the nepenthes community it's no longer a big kept secret, now everyone knows why your avatar is a Southpark-like figure, but don't worry I won't say a word! ;D) I'm actually going to use that screen as my screen saver and perhaps use it on my site. Not to worry, you'll get full credit and reference to it. Don't you just love it when someone has to always out do you at all cost? True colors,.......... Cartman, when you say something I always ask myself why does Goofy stand erect while Pluto remains on all fours? They are both dogs. You also are so thought-provoking and make me wonder why the professor on Gilligan's Island can make a radio out of a coconut, but can't fix a hole in the boat. But I want to ask you something since you're knowledgeable, if a deaf person has to go to court is it still called a hearing? And since you have kids, why is it that people say they "slept like a baby" when babies wake up every two hours? How important does a person have to be before they are considered assassinated instead of just murdered? Oh well continue typing and avatar-ing, love it! M
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Post by sockhom on Jan 7, 2010 10:07:02 GMT -10
Dave, Where ever there's sh*t there's flies and finally you. I knew someone was missing to the naysayer's group, now we're complete! That's a nice one. You really seem to overreact poor 50 years old little boy. You're not used to have to talk to naysayers don't you? Cartman, you're showing your true colors to the nepenthes community M Lesbian, dogs, shit and flies (you even mention my kids now? How eloquent ...) Verbal violence, loghorrea as a replacement for communication skills... Your true colors have been shown to the community a long time ago: you act in forums like a terrorist. Now, I'm tired of this and I will let you continue this highy intellectual discussion alone. Do as you wish here in your petty realm but, try to be aggressive and judgemental in the other sections and Cartman will erase your verbal diarrea in a second François.
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Jan 7, 2010 12:34:30 GMT -10
Dave, Where ever there's sh*t there's flies and finally you. Just because your plants isn't covered doesn't mean that you qualify as an non-bubble cultivated grower, come on your plants are still in a bubble of constant conditions. Your plants are still in a bubble, the only difference is that you share that space (air space) with it too! You made no sense as growers who grows plants in natural conditions all seem to have differing opinions to the contrary. Hey Michael, What scripts are you taking? You don't talk to people, but rather just stand there on the street shouting at them as they go by: "Seeds! Seeds!" Its really stupid, like the communists handing out literature in New York City about how the US doesn't actually have opportunities for everyone. How stupid do ya think people are? Bubble plants? Do you really know what you're talking about? No; not that it matters much. Michael, you're right about everything and it's just great you've got nothing left to learn. I hope you and your ditto heads have a great time blowing smoke up each other's asses. Seriously, dude, you watch way too much TV. Might be affecting the brain... All you want is for people to agree with you and kiss your butt or you just talk endless crap about them like they're your newly ex-wife; except people getting over their exes sooner than you get over someone that says they like TC plants. This is your entire statege or style of communication, like some sort of sitcom character. Do you really know much about Nepenthes or do you just talk crap about people that disagree with you? Your plants look really nice Michael, but they are at the same level as many other talented growers. If this little bit of trivia is too caustic for your ego, get over it; it'll make you a better person.
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Post by rainforest on Jan 7, 2010 12:51:34 GMT -10
Dave, I'm speechless. Nah not really. I'll let you know when I get off the floor laughing. Could I rephrase bubble plants to bubble head?
Every single person knows you're just harping on what others have said. You don't offer anything new, brilliantly inspiring or even making sense. You only come on after the alphas leave the scene. Like a scavenger or secondary bottom feeder.
Instead of harping, perhaps you can throw a curve ball and be inspiring instead of making your presence downgraded to car chaser.
I'm waiting for an inspirational moment from you. Surprise us!
M
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Post by philgreen on Jan 7, 2010 13:09:42 GMT -10
M - your totally unnessesary insults to just about everyone who happens to say they dissagree with you, does you no favours. why do you have to put your two cents in but it's only a penny for your thoughts? What happened to that extra penny? M This and all the rest of 'your' thoughts have been doing the rounds via email on the web for many years - do you not have any original thoughts ?? But if you're growing them in a natural setting, outdoors ..... Are you seriously suggesting that it shows skill in growing, when all you have to do is stick it in a pot, then shove it in the garden and forget about it ? Any kid who just happens to live in suitable climates could get good results. I'd rather listen to someone who actually has to take some time and trouble, to grow impressive plants in less than favourable conditions. That does at least show some skill level. Ratings figures are no sign of quality - that is why most TV has badly dumbed down over the years. That's why we get all the 'reality' TV crap like big brother, because the masses like to see other people fighting or behaving like fools. Popular maybe - but a total waste of everyones time.
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amori
Urceolatae
Posts: 21
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Post by amori on Jan 7, 2010 13:45:27 GMT -10
*Pulls up a comfy seat*
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Post by rainforest on Jan 7, 2010 13:49:38 GMT -10
Philgreen,
Name-calling started with Sockholm and Dave. Please Read everything not only what you want to see. But you only read my posts with name-calling.
You missed the point regarding my discussion of plants grown in a modified growing condition. In an outdoor setting, you have to deal with the elements (rain, wind, sun, drought, pests, etc.) an indoor growing environment doesn't experience. The point made for tc being weak sends a clear message that tc'd plants actually do poorly for those growing them in a more natural growing environment, and for those who feel that tc'd species planted back into the wild to save the species from extinction will help, guess again. I'm glad for those who can grow plants indoors under lights, or like on their window sills, etc. but my point for growing tc'd plants in raw conditions doesn't apply to spaces in controlled environments and the like. I don't see where you feel that I am putting down indoor growers or being less of a grower if you must CREATE your own environment to keep them alive. Now let's wait for Cartman or Davey to add onto your missed points and we'll have another big bash at it again.
But then again Philgreen you seem to missed the whole point period!
M
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