Post by rainforest on Dec 20, 2009 13:26:58 GMT -10
I have been asked recently by many persons regarding tc'd explant and seed original. I am still holding to my guns that you need ONLY to buy a seed original. I understand that many species only comes as a tc clone. This is never acceptable for my dollar. If a seed original comes out on the market, what will most growers do? Yes they would dump their tc clone in a heartbeat! So save your $ and buy only seed original. And always express to your growers, sellers, and the trade that you EXCLUSIVELY want tc and if they do not grow them, tell them to!
I have seen so many problems with tc clones from strange flowers, no flowers, too many flowers, weird leaves, weird growth patterns, no pitchers, and mutations later in life. And no matter what tc seller says to you, don't be fooled, a tc clone is a second rated plant! To perpetuate a retarded clone plant is the worst crime of all! It compromises the integrity of the species and self perpetuates bad characteristics to carry on that species to future generations. Not acceptable. You're doing more harm in growing tc species than helping them survive! Look at the state of affairs we have encountered because of tc. N. hamata all males, N. macrophylla possibly a hybrid circulating as a species, N. clipeata, N. viellardii worthless, N. khasiana where is it going?, and so many others. Species touched by tc have generally been lost or ruined by tc itself!
Post by idontlikeforms on Dec 20, 2009 17:57:59 GMT -10
Michael is there a difference in the roots of tissue cultured Neps and seed grown Neps? I have a few Neps I've grown from seed to about 4-6 inch diameter and I'm amazed at how extensive their root balls are. The tissue cultured Neps I've bought in the past always seem to have such smaller roots and the ones that die are almost always the ones with the weakest root systems too.
Is this a fluke or is this a consistent difference between TC and seed grown?
Post by Dave Evans on Dec 22, 2009 10:02:02 GMT -10
Michael is playing politician; a fork tongued snake. BE supplies seed grown plants all the time. I have several.
There is maybe 12 or so bad TC clones out of several hundred and most aren't even from BE, but other vendors. We have no idea if the plants were mutants before the seeds were TC'ed or not; though it does seem we have more mutant plants from TC in general, so some mutants probably have been directly caused by something to do with having been put through the Tissue Culture process.
BTW, I'm growing BE's N. vieillardii and it is one of the best examples (most attractive) of this species I've ever seen, with solid red pitchers. Once it grows out another basal rosette, I'm going to photograph it. Grows very well for me. Along with several dozen other TC'ed neps.
Borneo Exotics easily has the best line; in terms of health, vigor and diversity; of TC Nepenthes plants ever.
They got control of the heart of a nation Their social bribes seem so graciously As time goes by 'Cause time as you can see will slowly die for you and me
Look at the lost souls they seem so black Look at the lost souls Souls of Black
Rainforest, I have read several of your rants lately. I am very glad you are ranting as we need people like you, but it does seem to me that you have missed the original point of tissue culturing Nepenthes. Tissue culture of Neps was initiated not to propagate species in captivity, but to prevent poaching of wild plants by providing low cost clones in large numbers. It is a matter of sheer economics - if you flood the market with inexpensive plants, no one will buy the poached plants as they have to be pricey due to risk factors. You have to remember that most people who get Nepenthes don't care if the plant is somewhat retarded. It is only fanatics who post on forums like this one to whom such retardation makes any difference whatsoever. Now that many species have been flooded into the market, as it were, the commercial growers are beginning to grow seed-grown plants. Don't forget that this resurgence in the Nepenthes hobby is a fairly recent phenomenon (say 40 years or so) and the amount of work that has been done to preserve this genus is amazing considering that span of time. And yes, much of that preservation is due to the commercial efforts of people who grow TC'ed plants. This makes the plants more widely available and expands the number of people who care about them and are willing to do something to preserve the remaining wild populations. Let's face it, most people don't want to lay out $100 or more for a plant they think is kind of cool but might be difficult for them to grow. A $20 plant, on the other hand, is much more likely to be purchased on a whim. Like it or not, we Nepenthes fanatics need the vast majority of people in the hobby peripherally who aren't fanatics.
Post by rainforest on Dec 31, 2009 21:12:02 GMT -10
TC nepenthes have NOT decreased the poaching in the wild (f. ex N. clipeata, N. rajah, N. macrophylla, N. lowii, N. hamata, etc.) Seed originals have decreased poaching (i.e. N. ventricosa, N. maxima, N. veitchii lowland, N. truncata, and other seed originals). My gripe is not BE alone but also Wistuba and MT but more of the newer introductions are primarily BE. Again this is repetitive but here goes, BE has many many show plants in their collection for displaying and show-offs, yet do almost nothing to replicate seed-original seedlings of the species to species making yet put a lot of energy into making hybrids. Doesn't seem like they're really interested in saving species through propagation do they? I would commend them if they made on a regular annual basis more seed originals from stock plants of desirable species such as N. lowii, N. boschiana, N. jacquelineae, N. inermis, N. ampullaria, N. rafflesiana, etc. One must always attempt to make and keep a viable breeding population of any newer species at all cost. Instead of just making a limited offering of seedlings, some should be held back for future use in making seed originals instead of relying to just propagate tc clones instead. Imagine making yearly additions of true species from seeds where the gene pool will be greater than the wild plants in their natural territory. Well this is just a dream. We will never see this happen if they continue to only replicate tc clones, why should they? You're so happy to own a tc explant. You know, the plant that when it's about to flower, they just make spike after spike, after spike so the plant never pitchers after that, and the plant has to be cut back for new growth to make pitchers again. Then you think to yourself, is this the kind of characteristics that I want to maintain in a breeding program of a rare species? In the horticultural world, having a plant like a triploid flowering plant that burns itself out by just making flowers is OK! But for species survival (to me any way) this is a BAD thing! But don't take it upon yourself to be intimidated by my rants. WAIT until your prized species flowers and makes a spike or dozen spikes and then rethink what I've been trying to express here, and maybe you might see my bigger picture. If you've been around and read my old posts in TPPF, you may already know that I'm a master flowerer of many plants. What I have also discovered is that the tc clones never cease to flower and eventually your plant slowing shrinks away to nothing. Wait until your prize N. lowii flowers and never stops flowering and after numerous cuttings and cutting back just to start all over again with a seedling like size plant to get to the point of a flowering plant then you must ask yourself do I want to do this all over again? This is a real eye and mind awakening experience. But for those who don't care and are happy with just a multi-flowering to the death or a weak plant of your N. rajah, clipeata and the many newer additions to the TC retard family, I hope you are happy with this effect for the rest of your hard earned money and precious time. I suppose we won't ever see you ranting like I do then. You only purchased a single plant so it doesn't matter to you. But ask someone who has purchased ten or many more of a tc cloned plant and ask them if they still own all/any of them afterwards. YES BE sells seedlings but this is a timed event and afterwards for those who were not able to get them because of lower ranking status, less purchasing power or other less than fair status are only able to get tc clones. Does this seem fair? This goes back to my rants that ONLY seed originals should be purchased and ALL species TC clones be avoided at all efforts. Slowly some of you are seeing what I am talking about. I seem to hear a difference in tone in some of you when you seem to be supporting more seed originals over tc clones, so be ahead of the game and "AVOID ALL TC species clones at ALL EFFORTS!" It's simply not worth it! Time wasted and money thrown out the door.
Post by rainforest on Jan 4, 2010 10:03:40 GMT -10
Michael could you take a look at and respond to my post about roots above?
Anyone who has ever ordered bare root tc plants know that there is just one main root that supports it all. I am amazed how few roots are sent with BE and AW plants. After receiving seedlings of EP's plants, it's just amazing how much roots a plant does have. I always used to believe that BE, AW, and MT knocked off more of their roots because they didn't want to be bothered in cleaning them or maybe found galls or other root discrepancies that may hinder inspection and cause delays in quarantine.
I am still of the opinion (since so many others seem to bunk my theories of tc being inferior to seed grown plants) that tc plants are not worth the money and actually prevents proper growing to maturity and then flowering.
Post by rainforest on Jan 4, 2010 15:23:19 GMT -10
Perhaps I should have used two separate sentences to say that tc problems shows up in more matured features and then with problems into their flowering cycles. It should read that the plants do not grow properly (although I can't see where you might have believed that I meant that they do not flower as I am saying that growth is improper or not normal and having ten spikes come up to me is not normal especially when the plant cannot return back into a growing mode after flowering) and malfunctioning plant growth is improper. Still rereading the statement seems that I said it correctly that they do not grow properly at maturity AND flowering. Maturity referring to plants with upper pitcher development and flowering referring to actual spike production.
Post by idontlikeforms on Jan 4, 2010 17:04:07 GMT -10
I've bought probably over 100 tissue cultured Neps over the past year and half. What I have seen is that the ones that die are almost always the ones with the smallest root balls. The ones that live tend to be the ones that have larger root balls. I'm inclined to believe there is a direct correlation here. The dying plants die in the same way every time. They turn black and dry from the bottom upwards. They do not have their roots turn to sludge and stink like with root rot.
Now to be fair, some of the smaller root balled plants do survive, just not most of them. And I have repotted a good number of these too. I've noticed that their root balls tend to develop extensively. This and the fact that my seedlings have such large root balls makes me inclined to believe that the Neps are supposed to have larger root balls than these tissue cultured clones.
If this assumption is correct than I am convinced that tissue cultured plants are indeed inferior to seed grown.
This may not seem to be a big deal to some people but if it is a big factor in why the Neps I had die died it's a huge issue. Without a sufficient root ball a plant(any plant not just Neps) can dehydrate too easily. It also cannot absorb a sufficient amount of nutrients to sustain proper growth.
Lately I've been buying Nep seeds instead of tissue cultured Neps. I think I'm going to continue to do this and hold off on plants period.
Even Neps from cuttings I have have had growth problems. I have a Pasian Copelandii that is over 4 feet tall and has never even attempted to make a pitcher for me in 8 months. I suspect it lacks the necessary amount of root biomass to pull it off.
BTW, I don't doubt that lack of pitchering in a Nep is often the result of an under developed root ball too.
I think I'm just going to stick with seeds period, except for the occasional Nep plant that I buy at the BACPS(no shipping or transplanting).
Thanks for expressing your strong opinions Michael. I'm on your side.
Post by rainforest on Jan 4, 2010 17:40:14 GMT -10
While I understand and agree that the rootball size does play a major role in reacclimatizing to a new environment, this also falls in the same belief that root fertilized plants also acclimatize faster and with better results than non-fertilized plants. While some tc plants with small root mass do adjust well, did you also notice that these smaller plants have less leaf to root mass ratio than those that have died because of small root mass alone? For Philgreen et al, let me reiterate that small roots do not only make it harder to adjust, sometimes small roots on a large plant usually fail to root any way while a small fewer leafed plant with a good mass, even still small in comparison to a well rooted seedling, adjusts and reacclimatize better than its big-plant/small root mass counterparts.
TC in general has problems not only in the small "seedling" stage, but more adherent defects as they mature. By mature, I mean begin to make upper pitchers and pre-develop into blooming size adults. I have never seen seed originals develop multiple spike production as messed up as tc plants do. For a plant to make two spikes is a record and unusual development in a seedling but to see eight spikes arise in different stages all along its new growth is abnormal. I definitely wouldn't want this trait to be passed onto my seedlings of anything used in this crossing. This would lead to poor developmental and abnormal development ion actual seed-original plants even if they were from seed-original material. The BIG difference is that tc clones have caused major defects in future populations of crosses of hybrid and species remake seeds. We need to pay close attention to this as we approach the next generation of growing. Seeds made with inferior materials based on poor mal-growth problems inherent in TC clones will be passed onto future generations of even all seed-original plants. That defect that makes the underdeveloped pitchers or the throw-back prehistoric pitchers or even misinformed information making pitchers with a spur instead of true tendril or that leaf curl not a normal species trait, etc. All being passed down to future generations of species and even hybrids. I have seen this already in some species to species hybrids with defects very inherent for that specific defect. Unfortunately it is too late as we have already begun making hybrids into the third and fourth stages of generation hybrids with defective originals from tc origins. TC pollen or pod parents all passing poor growth features into our progeny which we will be seeing more and more of as time passes.
Post by Marcello Catalano on Jan 5, 2010 3:16:26 GMT -10
Idontlikeforms, finally someone who says clearly that he's on Michael's side! We're waiting for the other 250 that Michael mentioned A part from this, the forums are full of people with a great POSITIVE experience, Michael is the last person you should make questions to. So please, even if you ignore all OUR rants about Michael being a person with mind and behavioural problems, at least ask these other EXPERIENCED growers for a second opinion! We have Tony Paroubek, Sunbelle, Exotica Plants, Borneo Exotics, Leilani, Uncle Masa, Jeff Shafer... all with decades of experience, always showing us the best plants ever. They just don't shout, that's why maybe they were forgotten. Just a second opinion (possibly by private mail, to avoid forcing these people to argue with Michael once again), it's for the sake of your plants, it costs nothing ...
Marcello, I took that remark rather bitter from you. Shouting is only for the deaf ear or the ignorant mind, which one are you? I understand that "THIS IS SHOUTING IN REFERENCE ON THE FORUMS." I rarely cap everything and emphasize words I want to make clear (that are repetitive and reoccurring in my messages ). I am not seeking the many hands and statistics that you need to see. They are there. Whether they stand with me or not, I rant and message my expressions perhaps some lesser messaging fellow will repeat the same lines in a lesser momentum sometime in the future. But please note that this fellow may be a nay-sayer because you don't agree with them too. Please you're entitled to your opinions and beliefs, do stand on your soap box and provide us with the wonders and greatness of tc clones in the hobby today. I believe that BE's turn towards hybridizing when once upon a time R.C. was vehemently opposed to all hybrids was due to my previous rants and photo illustrations of EP's hybrids and his loss of the market in sales of hybrids. But let me emphasize the fact that EP's seedlings grow vigorously from healthy rootballs and a good start. Whether its seed original or tc hybrid they come to growth spurts unlike no other. I'd like to see anything BE, AW, or MT grow to that range seedling or tc likewise. BE could make me say wondrous things if he woke up and started to make species (instead of hybrids) seedlings from his "show plants" used for his exhibitions. Save the species, may I shout SAVE THE SPECIES. A clear message I serious doubt that anyone would say that my rants and raves are excessive or that I need 250 yay-sayers to warrant my soap box speech. Everyone knows (without me saying anything) that they have screwed up with so many species by selling tc exclusives that the species are in peril because of it. Your rude remarks about having persons ask me questions is such that I give my honest and heartfelt answers and if that involves going against the grain of the status quo, so be it! Marcello I have contributed a great deal of current thinking about how to grow nepenthes. You have contributed nothing. So please know that I took those remarks of asking anyone else a question other than me very personal. I always answer questions addressed to me (in pm or the forums) in a timely manner. Many have told me that those others you have listed may or may not have an answer, rarely return messages and return messages after the problem is no longer a problem because the plant has died or is irreversible. marcello, you stink up the forums!