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Post by Marcello Catalano on Jan 5, 2010 8:01:59 GMT -10
bla bla bla. I repeat: just ask for second, third and even fourth opinions. If Michael is right, they will tell you the same things he says. About your great contribute, Michael: ppppppppplease And you can call me Cello, it's easier.
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Post by idontlikeforms on Jan 5, 2010 9:13:42 GMT -10
Marcello, maybe to some people who just gotta have that certain Nep they care very little for whether it is TC or SG. Especially, if any deformities or problems caused by the tissue culture are either not usually visible to them or don't become visible before the plant dies in their possession. I think that some of the problems Michael is talking about, though quite valid to serious hobbyists who are breeding or trying to breed these plants, are not terribly important to many other hobbyists and especially beginner hobbyists.
But having an underdeveloped root ball literally means that more plants will die. Yes, IT DOES literally mean you are buying an inferior product. Would you buy a plant that had half its roots wacked off? You'd probably be concerned that it would die, especially if you had to transplant it. Well, having an underdeveloped root ball isn't much different. Same problem. The plant has a higher probability of dying in the first 9 months that you own it than a plant with a full sized root ball would have.
Besides this, I think it would be naiive of us to think that Neps are somehow immune to the problems that are known to be present among other species of plants that are tissuecultured.
I've been a CP hobbyist for almost 2 years now. One of the things I did early on is read many of the old posts made by you more experienced hobbyists. I read the old posts made by Michael on the pitcher-plant forum. You know, like the ones talking about fertilization. I remember Michael's "rants" about how Neps are "plants" and therefore benefit from fertilization. I remember that many other posters disagreed with him, even passionately. Yet now in the hobby it's considered gospel to fertilize Neps and those who are against it are the ones who are considered to be wrong. Frankly, I don't think this TC vs SG issue is going to turn out differently than the fertilization issue.
Michael has many Neps and many of them he grows to the flowering stage. He is seeing the full life cycle of TC and SG Neps and is reporting his observations just like he did in the past with fertilization. Do you have has many Neps and Neps flowering and reproducing as Michael has? Maybe he's on to something not yet fully apparent to many other experienced hobbyists.
Perhaps it would be wise for us to endure his "rants" and learn something. I don't find his dialogue particularly offensive. He does seem to me to be very passionate about his hobby though. Maybe it would would wiser to interpret his style of communication this way instead of attacking him in these posts. Maybe it would be wiser to be more patient with everyone and not think the worst of each others intentions in their posts.
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Post by Marcello Catalano on Jan 5, 2010 9:20:10 GMT -10
I only have to say: make the wisest choice, ask for second, third and fourth opinions.
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Post by philgreen on Jan 5, 2010 10:18:14 GMT -10
Well from the 31 plants I've had from BE - NONE have died. Have I just been lucky, or maybe lookafter them a little better.
Obviously any plant with a load of top growth and few roots will have difficulty sustaining that top growth and require more care - this is nothing to do with TC. Just as a plant with a massive rootball compared to growth will be more forgiving while it adjusts to new conditions - again nothing to do with TC/Seedling.
But it needs to be remembered that any plant that has been uprooted, spent a week or more in the post often with too cold/hot temps, (and often then reposted to someone else) then freshley repotted in totally different soil and conditions, is going to be in shock and need a bit of TLC to ensure it's survival.
I've had cuttings from people arrive that had only 1mm of root developed - but with care, grow and thrive.
Now don't get me wrong - I'm not an advacote of TC, I strongly favour seedgrown. But for any plant to flourish it needs to be treated right - otherwise don't be surprised that it dies. And just because someone says your conditions 'should' be right, doesn't mean they are. You need to find what is right for YOUR plant in YOUR conditions. I've had plants that I picked up from a couple of miles away (from experienced growers) - potted. But under my conditions they declined, but after repotting into my soil mix, they picked up and now thrive.
No two people conditions are identical and just a tiny apparently insignificant change, may be enough for a plant not to like it. Nothing to do with TC or not TC.
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Post by sockhom on Jan 5, 2010 11:00:39 GMT -10
Marcello I have contributed a great deal of current thinking about how to grow nepenthes. You have contributed nothing. M Oh, please Michael. You just make me sick. You just play air guitar man, I found nothing in what you said or preached in the past that wasn't said better, before you. This is your show here, since it's your section of the forum. If there are 250 silent lads who support you, I just bet that there 2500 who just run away each time they stumble on one of your "rants". François.
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Post by idontlikeforms on Jan 5, 2010 12:42:59 GMT -10
Phil it is more than just the transplanting from shipping and its disruption to the development of roots. Though that is a very valid point too.
Here's an example of what I've seen. I had a Rafflesiana that I bought from CP Jungle. It was an Agristarts 3 TC clone. It showed up in the mail fully decked out with a beautiful set of pitchers, though the plant in general was a bit papery. It had a very tiny root ball. Needless to say it dropped most of its pitchers and then grew very slowly and looked hagard. After awhile I put it into lowland conditions(I originally had it in Intermediate conditions) with high humidity. It then slowly at first but then more quickly began growing and pitchering again. I saw from repotting it that its roots had hardly grown at all. I then moved it back into Intermediate conditions. It continued to grow well. Then I sold it on Ebay, which resulting in me unpotting it to ship it bareroot. I saw that the roots had grown more but not a staggering amount.
Now I happen to have had a few Rafflesiana seedlings. Which I grew in a way that I could see much of their root system any time I wanted. This is how they developed; after they reached about quarter size they shot down a deep long black tap root that had root branches that grew almost sideways. The tap root got to about 3-5 inches deep. Later when span of the Nep got to about 2 1/2 inches across the long skinny tap root morphed into a brownish thicker root. I have some Mirabilis seedlings too. They developed precisely the same way.
This is NOT how my TC Rafflesiana's root developed nor is it how any of my other TC roots developed. Instead ALL of my TC clones lack a deep long tap root. Instead they have a root system that looks like an upside down bush as opposed to an upside tree like my SG seedlings.
My suspicion is that those Neps really do need that long tap root that gets thick. That is normally where plants store water and nutrients that would then flow up the xylem. And I suspect without it that they have a developmental disadvantage compared to SG. To be fair, I don't doubt that this problem lessens over time as the survivor TC clones eventually grow more of a rootball and the disparity in root mass would then likely lessen over time too.
I've purchased VFTs that were only out of TC for a few months. They had scarcely any root system at all. I've also noticed that pictures of TC Neps online generally have almost no root system. My guess is that Nep SG seedlings develop their root system in stages that are not exclusively dictated by their environment and that TC Neps don't have this early and it handicaps them.
I've also noticed, from uprooting a few seedlings that once they shoot out their first 3 or 4 natural leaves that they then shoot down a deep tap root then too. This would be three distinct stages total in root development I've seen that TC clones don't have at all. My suspicion is that these root development stages are important.
But yes, shipping causes problems too. It disrupts the fine root hairs that are what actually absorbs water and nutrients and this severely stresses plants. But I'm saying I think they are crippled even before this and that this bareroot shipping is even compounding the problem.
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Post by Marcello Catalano on Jan 5, 2010 13:35:59 GMT -10
For example, I would suggest you to ask Chris Klein, Sunbelle and Tony Paroubek about that. They have grown thousands of perfect plants from TC and from seed, they could give a very good spectrum of opinions in this regard. We can all give opinions, I'm just trying to address you towards the best sources... I'm happy about the discussion going back towards more quiet seas , and I'm sorry Michael for having been too harsh with my comments (but I still believe in what I said), and I'm glad to accept your comments as an answer because I know that we were playing on the same "childish fight" ground. It's just that I'm really afraid of the following phenomenon: great growers leave the forum because they are tired of arguing and disagreeing with Rainforest (isn't that strange?), the result is that RF's opinion (that of course he's free to express like anybody else) remains the only one, and the newer and less experienced members will think that RF is always right just because of that. So, instead of adding my rants to his rants, discussing posts that are 35 cm long and going in 100 different directions, I think I'll try to help reminding every now and then what follows: please, look for a second, third and fourth opinion from very experienced growers, even by pm or in other forums.
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Post by rainforest on Jan 5, 2010 15:35:50 GMT -10
Sockholm said
That's a pretty high voice for a lesbian! Did your parents have any kids that lived?
Geez, that's like getting a compliment from you. People who I have helped doesn't need to support me in jumping on my side. My rants are simply that. Make an eye-opening statement and get people's attention. It got yours. People may not remember that you discovered a new species, or that they saw a post from Cello-fame but ask anyone about my rants, and I'll bet you they'd recall everything I posted verbatim! My threads are always the highest hits among posters so just because you don't like what I have to say, go fish! I don't ask that you take my side, I don't ask that you jump in and say you believe in what I say, all I ask is be aware and know what you should get for your money and your time. Nobody has posted anything but goody two shoes-worth of crap. I tell it like it is, I don't candy coat the misgivings of growers just because you are afraid or too timid to stand up for yourselves. For those that are happy with just growing tc plants all I can say is ENJOY!!!!!! Actions speak louder than words. Having hobbyists say to growers and suppliers I only want seedlings sends out a message to make more seedlings. I have read the posts here and elsewhere and I have already seen the message that everyone wants seed-original plants. This is a victory to me and while you may not think that I had anything to do with this from pms of pers.comm. from individuals, I know that it has played a role on how people buy plants. Francois, while your species contributions have been immense, they say very little about efforts in cultivation, propagation and even remedy modifications. My area of expertise is in these areas and while they are not your beliefs or thoughts,they say a lot to so many people. So shut up and deal with it dude. If I in the future make a remark that you have any inkling of expertise in then by all means rant and rave. Until then say something to contribute not cut down. I am entitled to say and you can listen or ignore. I believe the term is burying your head in the ground. So dig and bury dude cuz that's what you specialize in!
M Have a Great Year(or something up there!)!
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Post by sockhom on Jan 5, 2010 20:39:35 GMT -10
That's a pretty high voice for a lesbian! Did your parents have any kids that lived? Just ask your mother, she might know. People may not remember that you discovered a new species, or that they saw a post from Cello-fame but ask anyone about my rants, and I'll bet you they'd recall everything I posted verbatim! Everyone remember about Saddam, so what's the point? See, I can speak garbage as you can, buddy. Like I said , move and dance like crazy in this section. I certainly do not want to contribute but let me remind you that there are loooads of people who disagree in most of the things you have to say and while you're whirling on the dancefloor, remember that there are other voices and other opinions. I won't let you smother them here like you did in PPITT, caus' you're the one who acted like a "nazi" there. A great year to you too ! François.
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Post by shawnintland on Jan 5, 2010 23:50:21 GMT -10
"Moderators" ... Hmmmm.
One would just assume it would have 'something' to do with the root word "Moderate"!
But then again!
So, what'll it be guys? Deep breaths...or pistils at dawn? (Yes, I meant to type it that way!) ;>)
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Jan 6, 2010 1:08:38 GMT -10
Well, I have got to say, Michael sure has managed to confuse several people. When you make a cutting from a plant, it doesn't make a tap root. This, again, doesn't have anything to do with Tissue Culture. The more Michael writes, the more fiction there is and the readers have to then figure which parts of his thoughts are actually accurate; 'cause mostly he is full of it. No one ever said TC is better than seed grown. Michael keeps repeating, repeating, repeating, the same garbage about how no one knew about growing from seed until he came and mentioned it. People didn't know to grow from seed? Hmm, let me think... where do plants come from? Could it be seeds? Wow! I never knew seeds grow into plants! Holy cow, why didn't anyone know this? That is because they don't know the words of Michael, the archangel of seed growth. Back to cuttings. When the cuttings are made, whether invitro or exvitro, the plantlets will generally not grow tap roots; not for a while at least. Some kinds of plants never will. This was a well known fact, known long before Nepenthes started being mass produced via TC. After a long time (and sometimes sooner), a tap root can indeed develop on Nepenthes reproduced by cutting or TC. This is because of the plant's physiology. Some plants don't grow tap roots, but have advantageous roots which take on the role of tap root. Some plants cannot do this, but neps can. Some plants cannot be cut back to the ground and then grow back healthy. Some can, including Nepenthes. Are all cuttings equal? No. I generally only make cuttings which are already in the shape of small Nepenthes plant so the cuttings become established plants more quickly. This includes having very short internodes near the cut, so the after it roots it behaves much more like a seedling and can even branch (grow basals) from the nodes at the soil surface. If it is an akwardly shaped cutting, the plantlet will take a long time to start growing well and the root development can be stunted leaving the plant weak and vulnerable to any other stresses. Michael says making cuttings of female plants so more people can buy them and flower them and make seed doesn't help the hobby any. He also says, collecting wild seed, growing them out and distributing the plants doesn't help the hobby. Gee Mike, where do you suppose genetic diversity comes from? This fellow is a Nazi, his way or the highway, but too bad his way isn't even close to best. Who's been helped with getting half the truth and some other stuff Michael made up? Here's the quote: "My threads are always the highest hits among posters so just because you don't like what I have to say, go fish! I don't ask that you take my side, I don't ask that you jump in and say you believe in what I say, all I ask is be aware and know what you should get for your money and your time. Nobody has posted anything but goody two shoes-worth of crap. I tell it like it is, I don't candy coat the misgivings of growers just because you are afraid or too timid to stand up for yourselves. For those that are happy with just growing tc plants all I can say is ENJOY!!!!!!" Who are you Rush Limbaugh or Michael Moore? It is amazing how you attach things together that aren't actually attached. I brought a TC plant and that makes me a wuss by way of his broken logic. I'm so glad the seed nazi has set me and everyone else straight; I might have lived my whole life not realizing plants grow from seeds and, oh yeah, I'm a TC loving wuss.
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Post by unclemasa on Jan 6, 2010 1:17:07 GMT -10
HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL! A new year and finally some action. Personally ....... I have enjoyed this discussion. The great thing is that it has, in spite of some shots and cuts .... which I also enjoy, remained on topic . I like it when posters are inspired or even agitated ..... its alive. I sometimes wish we could all sit around the bar together, have a few drinks, let down some barriers, and call each other names in the way really good friends can get away with. If, respect means that I have to dance around your ego or civil sensibilities then, it is a facade. A nice, civil facade but .... boring. The truth is that, other than some Wistuba stuff one year, a scattering of BE clones and a couple of Agrastarts plants, I have not grow that many plants from TC. In those that I have grown out, I have seen many of the issues Michael talks about. I have seen runaway node freaks from TC plants from both Wistuba and BE and I have even seen a couple of “flower freaks” (mature plants) from TC originated materials. I have always considered TC plants inferior to seed grown plants at the seedling stage. Tissue culture is one of those “miracles of science” that allows us to reproduce plants in unprecedented uniformity and numbers. Still, it is no substitute and certainly no improvement on the natural process of reproduction. The advantages of tissue culturing plants are numerous in agriculture. The advantages in tissue culturing Nepenthes are primarily financial. Less space, higher numbers, consistent “one-in-the-picture” product, fewer employees, lower shipping, ease of international transport, etc. Beyond the financial there is potential application in certain areas of environmental protection and I don’t want to deny anybody their good works but, most of the time, I think this makes for better public image more than making a difference in the larger issues of habitat loss and poaching. I’d like to recap this thread so far ..... Michael pretty clearly states his opinion. Cello takes exception to Michaels claims and offers a link to mature specimens of BE’s stock. This does little to address the argument as we don’t know if these are TC plants, stock materials or what. Even if there are all from TC stock it misses the point. No one said that all TC plants die or exhibit deformities. The argument would seem to be that these problems occur at a higher rate in TC plants than in SG plants. Dave Evans calls Micheal “a forked tongued snake” and defends BE’s efforts and practices. On the other hand, he acknowledges that he has noted about a dozen “bad TC clones” in his own experience and that these “mutants probably have been directly caused by something to do with having been put into the Tissue Culture process.” kain reminds us of the environmental argument for tissue cultured plants. He also reminds us that we are bunch of snobs and that the real market is the common denominator of money and people ..... “somewhat retarded”. ;D Michael restates, in expanded form, his position that TC plants are inferior and questions BE’s stated, at least in motto, position that TC is an effective environmental remedy and the implication that this is the company’s primary purpose in pursuing the technique. There would seem to be an insincerity in this position but, on the other hand, no more than in any other industry trying to promote itself and its product. Kinda like Kellogg's adding calcium to corn flakes or McDonnals’ chainging their cooking oil because they really care about your health. BE’s motto supports an admirable goal ..... its a good motto. On the other hand we need to recognizenize that they are also a business and as beholden to kain’s common denominator as any other. I smile at the thought that Kellogg's really cares that I am not getting enough calcium ..... but I still eat corn flakes. What I will say in defense of BE is that I think Michael’s expectation are a bit too high as regards species preservation and BE’s responsibility for it. The kind of real investment, time and energy needed to conduct the sort of species preservation program Michael seems to desire seems, to me, financially prohibitive for a company like BE. To produce seed grown, genetically diverse specimens of the many species and varieties of endangered Nepenthes, in sufficient numbers to make a difference, would be a very big project more suited to a government or University than private, for profit, business. If only the money were there! idontlikeforms points out that one of the major problems with TC plants as opposed to SG is less robust root development. I think this is true but it is only half the story. TC plants are SOFT. They are grown sheltered from any environmental challenge and must, to be grown successfully, go through a process of acclimation after being removed from the flask. It is only in a sheltered environment that TC propagation works so it is unavoidable. Plants germinated in a tray and grown exposed to the natural elements are always better equipped for the struggle to adolescence ( ... but more expensive to produce). I would think people would be aware of this and either accept that a certain percentage of TC plants will perish in this process (... as a given) or buy their TC plants from a reputable seller who puts the plants through this process and takes the risks before sale. Cello counters with more ad hominin attacks on Michael ....... “a person with mind and behavioural problems” and suggests that people should seek advice from others. For my part Cello I would have to side with Michael in my preference for SG plants and an avoidance of TC plants in general. (Cello... one of the advantages of this, as you have described it before, “anarchic” forum is that we let you get away with saying what you do. Not so bad when it comes from your mouth .... ehh?) Michael defends himself and asks for evidence that might counter his arguments. Cello offers no real argument but does become less formal. idontlikeforms is practical and conciliatory. Cello, again, offers no argument. philgreen shares his positive experience with BE plants but is not sure if he is just lucky or more skilled and experienced. I think probably the latter. Francois seems a bit put off by Cello's tone and makes conciliatory remarks but then, apparently, has a change of heart, removes his first post and gets sick. idontlikeforms relates his experience with TC plants inferior root development. Cello is a gentleman and apologizes for poor form. He prudently suggest that, especially new growers, should seek out a variety of opinions from a number of very good growers. (Just for the record ..... none of the growers mentioned has been as successful in growing exceptional plants as Michael.) Still, very good advice. Michael calls Francois a lesbian! ;D Forgive me Francois but I fell on the floor laughing. Totally inappropriate and offensive but I warned you about swimming in the shark tank with your lucky ham. ;D (Michael ..... funny as hell but you owe Francois an apology). Francois replies and makes his point. Good work but remember that the only nazi’s here are the ‘species only’ people. ;D ( .... my little joke!). shawnintland ...... like 'copulation' has anything to do with the police!
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Post by Marcello Catalano on Jan 6, 2010 2:50:14 GMT -10
I offered no more arguments because, as I said, here we are with the famous 100 different directions (it even seems we say TC is better than SG, and that's the confusion caused by RF), and I already got bored. So I prefer to go back to the main point: ask more opinions from more successfull growers, even by pm or in other forums. Please, don't tell me that the above mentioned growers never had plants as good as Michael, because that's sci-fi!I don't live in the tropics, I've no garden, so I can only mention OTHER growers, but from Michael I never saw plants that made me shout "wow", like it happened from many others. Michael, massive northianas, rajah, pervillei, insignis, madagascariensis or merrilliana would make me change my mind, please don't show me a giant maxima x ventricosa! I know of the good and bad sides of the anarky forum, and I try to use the good sides, not just being a victim of the bad sides. But I just prefer the non-anarky ones, where you proceed with order and logic (Michael, later on I'll tell you what that means). Once this last discussion will be over, maybe I'll get "retired" to non-anarky forums. Hopefully somebody else will remind "please ask for second, third and fourth opinions" instead of me I tried to resist ("ignore rf, ignore rf", like a mantra!), but sometimes I'm here bored, at home, and Michael goes so over the top, that I just can't resist and I jump in the mess, I'm sorry... I should just avoid the whole place... I'll try again! Michael, I know you're with me in this!
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Post by sockhom on Jan 6, 2010 2:51:23 GMT -10
Hi again, Great! Unclemasa joins us and counts the points! HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL! A new year and finally some action. Personally ....... I have enjoyed this discussion. The great thing is that it has, in spite of some shots and cuts .... which I also enjoy, remained on topic . I like it when posters are inspired or even agitated ..... its alive. I sometimes wish we could all sit around the bar together, have a few drinks, let down some barriers, and call each other names in the way really good friends can get away with. If, respect means that I have to dance around your ego or civil sensibilities then, it is a facade. A nice, civil facade but .... boring. I do know, Sam, that you like it when posts get agitated. The truth is that I find it naive to think that people could accept to be called names and keep on talking on a forum like this. Most of the time, people just leave. Yes, shouting is fun but the truth that, at the end, there's only one lad left: the shouter and his followers. I accept the presence of Michael as I think of this forum as a big community, a democracy, where everyone can express his voice. Unfortunately, Michael's preaching has just become, as far as I am concerned, unbearable. People left because of him. If being called a lesbian made you laugh, fine. (No wonder from someone who enjoyed keeping a shark in a tank ). (by the way, this lesbian quote has been used many times in current TV series, now. Michael should try something fancier ;D). As long as I will be a global moderator here, I will make sure that everyone can express its views and if this means that I have to fish shark, I'll do it . Once this last discussion will be over, maybe I'll get "retired" to non-anarky forums. Hopefully somebody else will remind "please ask for Oh, come on, don't you leave too. At the very end, I'll be forced to have a beer with Rainforest! ;D Maybe we'll start a waltz ;D Lesbian-boy
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Post by Marcello Catalano on Jan 6, 2010 2:57:11 GMT -10
Sam, you had a shark in a tank? I hope you put it back in the sea later on, or I won't talk to you anymore.
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