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Post by rainforest on Jan 7, 2010 13:58:10 GMT -10
Philgreen said:
Please start this topic in a new thread and enlighten us with your wisdom instead of harpings.
M
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Jan 7, 2010 17:17:14 GMT -10
Dave, I'm speechless. Nah not really. I'll let you know when I get off the floor laughing. Could I rephrase bubble plants to bubble head? Every single person knows you're just harping on what others have said. You don't offer anything new, brilliantly inspiring or even making sense. You only come on after the alphas leave the scene. Like a scavenger or secondary bottom feeder. Instead of harping, perhaps you can throw a curve ball and be inspiring instead of making your presence downgraded to car chaser. I'm waiting for an inspirational moment from you. Surprise us! Right, I'm trying here. Please be inspired to grow up Michael. You're behaving like a child and why are you always talking about yourself with so much higher regard than anyone else actually gives you? So now you've declared yourself an "Alpha", why? What does this mean? You respond to people who say things you disagree with by calling them, "sycophants", "bubble heads", "people that don't care about the hobby", "foolish", "lesbian" just a string of insults but nothing which actually resolves back to anything they have written which contradicts your "facts". I have plants from TC which grow very well. They aren't in a bubble. Can you receive information which contradicts your theories? Can your ideas evolve as new information comes along? Some people have a hard time with some TC clones. Some clones give everyone problems. Do something useful about it, like find out why. There isn't anything wrong with TC itself, just some of the people doing it aren't as skilled as others. If it's the ingredients being used, perhaps different ingredients will have a better result. But here, you'll just respond by saying how stupid I am for knowing things you don't seem know and don't care to learn. Everyone already agrees seed grown Nepenthes are better then poorly cultured TC plantlets. Who doesn't? Who are you arguing with? What is an alpha grower? If I seem too harsh in this thread for some readers, I'm sorry. I've taking on a policy of "pre-emption" as far as Michael is concerned. He's already burned so many bridges in the past; I've lost all patience. And nazi remark is because he used to go by the name "Nep Nazi"--it is a name he gave himself; 'cause in his world nazis are funny and amusing.
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Jan 7, 2010 20:31:04 GMT -10
The point made for tc being weak sends a clear message that tc'd plants actually do poorly for those growing them in a more natural growing environment, and for those who feel that tc'd species planted back into the wild to save the species from extinction will help, guess again. Perhaps there is a chance here to put this bed... Okay, Michael is campaigning against using TC material for transplanting back into the wild. So, is there anyone out there that is convinced that using material from TC which now has a genetic bottleneck and may have been duplicated using sometimes flaky technology that has the potential to damage the DNA (since we haven't figured out why some plants have become mutants yet) back into wild populations? What experts are out there who think this is a great idea? Anyone? Do the people Michael is protesting against actually exist?
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amori
Urceolatae
Posts: 21
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Post by amori on Jan 8, 2010 0:21:34 GMT -10
To answer your question Dave, nope, not me. I'm going to state - and most likely repeat - the obvious, so please don't bash me, Michael! When I invest in a seedgrown plant I see it as an investment for the future diversity of that particular species, maybe first in cultivation, then into the wild should things go pear-shaped. I have to safeguard and care for them on another level than TC clones, and it can be an emotional ride at that. I'm sure many, if not all other growers feel the same way, and there's no denying that seed grown individuals of rarer (or any) species have an air about them. Again, it's one thing to buy an expensive seedling, and it's a whole other cookie growing them from seed. When I buy a TC species or hybrid it's usually merely for the fun and love of growing Nepenthes. Do I think there should be more seed grown material for reasonable prices? Certainly. Should the market consist wholly of seed grown material? Possibly, but wouldn't this reduce or halt the healthy and fun circulation amongst hobby growers, which may not all be in it for the conservation aspect? As an example, recently I didn't hesitate to sell a jacquelineae and lowii that were putting on size, specifically because they were TC material. In that light, I think TC is a reasonable way to not make the apparition of genetic faults, sale, loss or disposal of a clone a ceremonial matter (at least to me). I don't buy nearly as many plants now and tend to stick to SG over TC if a particular species or hybrid sounds interesting. Cheers, Amori
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Post by philgreen on Jan 8, 2010 7:39:42 GMT -10
M - by likening plants not grown outside to test tube growing, that naturally comes across as looking down on those growers - it may not be what you meant, but it is the implication given. Many of my plant (TC & seedlings) which are in a grow case, have been getting night time temps of between 2-4C, daytime often no higher than 9C (12C on occassions) for several weeks. Do you really consider these as soft pampered plants ?? Another grower reminded of this thread on a load of BE's 'weak TC clones' of rajah, which seem to be doing rather well outside, many growing in the soil not pots. pitcherplants.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3237 Do the people Michael is protesting against actually exist? Probably not. It's a common ploy to say something everyone agrees with (to get them on your side to start with), then drift into other areas and take them with you, as many people don't notice that the 'sensible' person they originally agreed with is no longer there. Now what was you saying about nazi
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Post by rsivertsen on Jan 8, 2010 12:45:50 GMT -10
Well, I was going to avoid this thread, trash talk and all; sticks and stones, .... (I've been known to engage in a little well intentioned good humored trash talk myself, but usually face to face with close friends in casual informal settings over a beer or so, and mostly in jest.)
I've been growing Nepenthes from seed since God was a kid (well, almost), going back to the late '60's, before TC was even available for this genus.
The point I would like to make is that in growing these plants from seed, we allow some Natural Selection to occur within our artificial growing conditions; those seedlings that are genetically suited for our conditions thrive and grow well and fast, while others struggle, and seem to stay as small runts, and some just fizzle out and die.
TC plants don't go through this natural selection process, and we just might find ourselves stuck with plants that would never have thrived in our conditions if it had been allowed to germinate and grow as other seedlings. Furthermore, as Mike points out, some plants do have problems with hormones that seems to last months or even years. I've seen it myself not only with Nepenthes, but Heliamphora as well, the most notable being the lateral nodes becoming activated with every leaf/pitcher, forming stunted bushy plants that takes longer to reach maturity, and sometimes just fizzles out and dies.
So far, I don't really see any nefarious conspiracy among the TC growers, as they are just attempting to respond to a demand with the only available supply they have. I hope that eventually, seed grown plants will replace TC copies, as is the case with a few such suppliers. Just my 2 cents. - Rich
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kain
Insignes
Posts: 144
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Post by kain on Jan 8, 2010 15:00:04 GMT -10
So, I'm a newbie on this forum, but for what it's worth, I think a lot of the big boys here just need to chill out. Your arguments should stand on their own merits. Throwing in the insults just makes you seem incoherent, childish, and ignorant - which are things NONE of you are under normal circumstances (at least that seems to be the case from numerous other postings from each of you). Basically, when you insult someone, you are telling them that you cannot think of a supportable argument that contradicts them - you are retreating to the verbal club because you can't think of anything better (or more constructive) to say. Who cares who started it? You all have differing (but valuable) opinions about growing these fascinating plants. You all are the veteran growers that noobs like me look up to for advice - except you're all acting like politicians - trying to browbeat the others into agreeing with you when it's never going to happen. Michael, Francois, Marcello, Dave, etc. I read all (or most) of your posts and I find something valuable to me in just about every single one - but I have to take all of them in the context of your other posts because only when I do that can I apply what you have said to what I am doing with my plants - because you all have your different ways of doing things that work for you that might not work exactly the same way for me. But I always think carefully about all of your opinions because you have all shown that you do know what you're talking about. And that brings me to the bottom line: Respect! If you cannot agree with each other (and nobody always does) then the least you can do is show each other the respect each of you absolutely deserves.
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Post by rainforest on Jan 8, 2010 16:20:30 GMT -10
It is very funny how you seem to just read some points made and make them my entire mission. You selectively read some aspects of what I am saying and turn them around into my main reason for this ritual. Well you need to read everything, even if it is going to take some of your time. Sorry about that. I wouldn't have to repeat myself so redundantly if you read the whole text (or don't/don't say anything if you haven't read the whole thread). I'm not going to repeat these again as they have already been clearly written elsewhere.
My point for tc again still stands that genetically they are retarded, whether this is a result for poor growth, sustained growth or otherwise ( each person writing a post suggesting their own dilemma -not necessarily mine) but then point your fingers to me that I have made such a statement.
It's funny that you say I have imaginary friends or people in agreement with me as I could care less. My soap box is big enough just for me, I don't share that spotlight with anyone. Call megalomaniac or whatever, I am here to post the dangers of putting all your eggs into one basket, the tc basket appropriately. If there isn't enough seed originals around and only available as a tc clone, then make some seed-originals. You say then do it. It can be done as all our efforts for growing plants to maturity has one goal in mind, the goal to make pure species seed and whether these are natural selections from wild stock or selective cultivars from home conditions, they are nonetheless going to thrive for us and whether they carry genes to make them superior, then so be it. Who wouldn't want a plant that will be robust and true? If you're planning to buy a species because it is only available as a tc clone, my rant is still to avoid it at all cost. It's simply not a viable choice to make. While they will grow for you or even look appealing, I have not grown a tc plant that I really adore and for those who have, please show us your photos and photos of flowering specimens and perhaps seedlings from them. I believe they can reproduce but usually at a compromise for growth features that may be mutational in an undesirable way. I have noticed leaf curvatures and aberrant tendril attachment and even twisted leaves that repeat themselves in some clones. Flowering in some to the point of reproductive exhaustion. Perhaps these would be desired characteristics in things like seed grown marigolds and petunias but unfortunately not for species preservation. As we enter a new decade of nepenthes growing we need to address how we will be growing them in the future. Will we all be growing them as tc'd explants of the better single clones as experienced previously? The plants you buy today will be breeders for plants in the future. Will you want to sit on plants that may have a risk factor upon maturity some ten years down the road? Such a long time to wait and see. I don't read much about the problems of seed-originals with aberrant problems, perhaps there are ghost writers out there that are saying so. I'd like to read or learn of this.
Amori, why would I bash you? If you read all the posts carefully, you will see such a statement made from me always as a defense mechanism for some other childish rant made by someone previously. Yeah it's childish but sometimes you have to bring yourself to their childish level to make them see. If you have ever read any/all of my threads I have always been supportive no matter what your views are. But if you only come onto the last page where I call Sock Cartman, then you missed everything up to that point. Please reread the original start of this thread and you'll just see my original statement where it leaves an open invitation for others to share their thoughts. It doesn't get nasty until someone throws the first stone. Please also check out who these stone throwers are, oddly they're only reason for being here is to make trouble.
M
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Clue
Urceolatae
Posts: 11
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Post by Clue on Jan 29, 2010 16:50:42 GMT -10
This is an interesting topic we have here. I have found that there are pros and cons with TC plants and seedgrown plants.
With TC plants, there are obvious benefits. They are inexpensive, easy to get, and often come with the added bonus of TC vigour. I began with a simple TC ventricosa from a hardware store, and it turned into a hobby. However, there are some less desirable traits that can be expressed through TC'd plants as well. Sometimes they mutate during the rapid cell division process and come out as not too desirable plants with defects. There's one of the few problems I can see with TC'd plants. I have not been able to see any defects in my TC'd AW or BE plants to date. TC is good if you want relatively inexpensive and large plants.
With seedgrown plants, there are benefits as well. They are genetically different from other plants, meaning that there's a larger amount of clones of a certain species floating around. For cons, what I can think of is that they are relatively expensive as a result of Nepenthes' usual growth rate for a small plant, so they aren't what an amateur would want.
I have no problems with TC or seedgrown plants. Just my $0.02.
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Post by Noa_F on Jan 29, 2010 19:53:16 GMT -10
TC vigour? Lol, have'nt heard of that one before.
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kain
Insignes
Posts: 144
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Post by kain on Jan 30, 2010 14:21:36 GMT -10
Clue isn't crazy. I've heard of this, too. Supposedly, TC'ed plants grow very quickly for a short time after they are removed from the flask.
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Post by rainforest on Jan 31, 2010 16:06:30 GMT -10
Let me reiterate a topic that has again gone astray. I am not totally against TC plants, they do have their place. But for species saving NOT HERE! For hybrids, for some clones of common stuff like ventricosa, Ventrata, Miranda, it has its place. What my gripe is that many nurseries are replacing tc for everything as the basis for propagation, sustenance and species survival as if tc clones will replace natural propagation SPECIES. If BE wants to make a thousand N. bellii x black truncata from a single TC clone, so be it. You decide whether you want to own one of these. It's no gene pool success or loss story if this hybrid had deformed flowers, makes strange multi-flowering spikes that wipes out the ability to grow properly. But when there is just three clones of N. hamata (and they're all males, and may possibly be just a single clone to begin with) in this case it is NOT OK for me. Then I say TC clones is a not welcome here. We've seen this happen so much over and over again for so many species which have been "wasted" under tc propagation. Thanks to tc we have just a few N. villosa, N. macrophylla, N. lowii, N. rajah, N. hamata, N. boschiana, N. veitchii highland, N. clipeata, and so on. In saving a species you just don't grow out the "most vigorous seedlings" for tc explants. You grow them all out every single seedling to maturity. You might be able to only propagate a few tc clones due to the high overhead in keeping them, but you do grow them all out to maturity and use them for breeding afterwards. Any way, I have yet to see a tc clone of something out grow a species from seed of the same .
M
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Robiii
Nobiles
Grow the new world
Posts: 262
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Post by Robiii on Apr 7, 2010 23:36:19 GMT -10
:)Remember people breathe and be open to ideas as well as we should all be aware of others opinions but take lightly what you must no need to be haste. I have seen so many problems with tc clones from strange flowers, no flowers, too many flowers, weird leaves, weird growth patterns, no pitchers, and mutations later in life. And no matter what tc seller says to you, don't be fooled, a tc clone is a second rated plant! To perpetuate a retarded clone plant is the worst crime of all! It compromises the integrity of the species and self perpetuates bad characteristics to carry on that species to future generations. Not acceptable. You're doing more harm in growing tc species than helping them survive! Look at the state of affairs we have encountered because of tc. N. hamata all males, N. macrophylla possibly a hybrid circulating as a species, N. clipeata, N. viellardii worthless, N. khasiana where is it going?, and so many others. Species touched by tc have generally been lost or ruined by tc itself! M I've only been growing orchids for 10 years give or take on a hobby to green thumb level and nepenthes for going on 6-7 years. And had the introduction to both tc and seed originals now for maybe 4 years 2 really aware and observant of the issues being discussed. I'm using orchids since they are the closest in growing conditions as well as reproduction/propagation purposes and orchids and nepenthes are both tissue cultured as well as my own personal experiences. Starting with the orchids which most are not seed originals I believe I only know of 2-5 maybe that are the rest of which are highly temperamental and seem to be their most fragile to death during bloom or soon after blooming. Half of them their flowers appear correct but most of them have very peculiar flowers with enlarged and deformed parts as well as leaves second if any pest is introduced by any mean they are the first to be hit and die. Drought is another factor they do not seem to be accustomed to, where as the seed originals tend to be more resilient even after a short to moderate period of drought. Nepenthes have shown their own similar down falls just with a higher percentage rate of seed originals that I have owned and grown and though seed may be tricky at times there is a solution if you think things through and realize my conditions are my conditions and everywhere is different. But if the world was growing from tc we'd be all dead by now. I'll post some pics and add more to this shortly but this is a pretty good summary to start. Robiii
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