If you grow a "thorelii", please check this thread

[sockhom]

Hi ,


Many plants, coming from Indochina (Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia and Lao) are sold as N. thorelii.


The true N. thorelii is not in cultivation.

You either grow N. smilesii (formerly N. anamensis), N. kampotiana, N. bokorensis or some undescribed species, or even hybrids between all these similar species.

They are more or less all species with linear-lanceolate leaves with clasping base and reddish pitchers.

If you want to have an ID (or, at least, a surmise of ID), INSIST on asking the location of your plant.

If you want to know more about the Indochinese Nepenthes and the "thorelii complex", please check the following thread:
lhnn.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ht&action=display&thread=2768

Thank you for spreading the right information .


Truly,

François.

[kain]

Does anyone know why Exotica Plants still sells a bunch of hybrids with "N. thorelii" in them?

[Marcello Catalano]

Because in the case of (old) hybrids it's difficult to go back and understand WHAT species that "thorelii" was. Sometimes it's possible, sometimes very difficult, sometimes impossible. So - at least after a discussion started on the pitcher-plants forum - the general opinion was "those hybrids are appreciated for their beauty, not for the pedigree, such a research would be useless, and we are talking about something like 250 hybrids". New hybrids of course will have more clear pedigrees, as now people (often) know what IC species they are using for their cross.

[Dave Evans]

Basically the reason is, the plants have been known by those names for a while, so the names kind of "stick" in place. As Marcello mentions, it will be rather difficult (at times impossible) to figure out all the hybrids, but I think we'll be able to sort out most of them, especially as we become better acquainted with the species from Indochina.

There has been *a lot of confusion* in the past about the identity of these species for years and years. Sometimes the names where used correctly, but most of the time this was not the case. The best example is "Nepenthes thorelii" which hasn't been used correctly since the original author named it. Every single use of the name since then, until just a few months ago, has been a case of mistaken identity. But N. smilesii was also believed by most to be a version of N. mirabilis! N. anamensis was considered by many people to be both a version of N. mirabilis and a different species from N. smilesii which people called 'thorelii', the situation looking back at it, seems like a paradox.

I think we've already come a long way in clearing up this mess, but we still have to chip away at what left.

I think a system could be employed, to rename some of the still existing hybrid parents of further hybrids as cultivars and then replace the bogus "thorelii" with the new cultivar name in the hybrid formula... It might a good way to get away from some of this ridiculous over-use of the name "thorelii".

Think about how confusing it will be if we actually get real thorelii in cultivation and then start making hybrids. 'Is my plant here really a thorelii hybrid?'

[kain]

"Think about how confusing it will be if we actually get real thorelii in cultivation and then start making hybrids. 'Is my plant here really a thorelii hybrid?' "

Exactly what I was thinking, Dave! Would DNA studies be of any use or are the genetics of this species group so similar that you still wouldn't be able to tell them apart (in which case new questions arise)? Has anyone done a cladogram on this group?

[sockhom]

Jan 10, 2010 4:24:35 GMT -10 kain said:

"Think about how confusing it will be if we actually get real thorelii in cultivation and then start making hybrids. 'Is my plant here really a thorelii hybrid?' "

Exactly what I was thinking, Dave! Would DNA studies be of any use or are the genetics of this species group so similar that you still wouldn't be able to tell them apart (in which case new questions arise)? Has anyone done a cladogram on this group?

Hi Kain ,

Genetics might indeed be useful to identify the "thorelii" used in hybrids. But it's so expensive that no one will get the funds to do that.

Once the true N. thorelii will be found, one can propose solid keys to distinguish all the species included in the "thorelii" complex.
Although must of them are similar (like philippinensis / alata/ saranganiensis or hirsuta /hispida or papuana/danseri /neoguineensis), they can quite easily be distinguished if one can study their taxonomic features.

If the true N. thorelii is rediscovered and used for new hybridations, I think all the siblings should be labelled as "thorelii x something" and all the old hybrids as "aff. thorelii x something" until we can identify the "thorelii" used - if it's possible.

Truly,

François.

[philgreen]

Jan 10, 2010 5:00:42 GMT -10 sockhom said:

and all the old hybrids as "aff. thorelii x something" until we can identify the "thorelii" used - if it's possible.
François.

I think the likelyhood of that happening with ALL the hybrids floating around is nil - a few might get relabled, but not all of them. Even if by some miracle it did happen, loads more new ones will be made over the comming years with the various 'thorelii' already out there, which also won't all be renamed, especially if that means calling them unknown hybrids.

I think the only real solution is to call any new genuine hybrids 'Real' thorelii x ?? or something similar.

And what will happen when some of those same crosses start to be made with the real thorelii

After all, if major nurseries suppling Garden Centres can't be bothered to change there lables from N. alata, for everything they send out - when it's been known for decades they ain't. Already CZ are now offering 'thorelii' TC tubes - anyone know what their's is

[Dave Evans]

Well, if somebody has one grown out; we could probably id it...

[nepenthes77]

It seems a N.thorelii is being sold on ebay by a man who has taken a cutting from a wild plant-from what I can understand. " This plant are not bring come from forest. We create new plant at my nursery. (The original plant of them., be get come from forest once ago.)"

cgi.ebay.com/Carnivorous-Nepenthes-thorelii-wild-NEW-plant-/220782480045?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3367a94aad