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Post by unclemasa on Apr 15, 2009 13:47:16 GMT -10
Just a couple of points I would like to make .....
Normally, a hypothetical discussion of presumed innocence in the justice system would sound like great fun to me. However, I realize that for tonyp and michelle this is more than a hypothetical. It must be very frustrating, having been wronged, to see the person responsible continue to do their dirty business just out of reach of yourself and the law.
We have and I support a very liberal speech policy here on this forum. I am not likely to censor anyone unless their conduct becomes a liability to the forum as a whole and I do not attempt to stop a fight between adults who know what they are getting into and should be able to take care of themselves. (Dave .... are you looking for a cage-match with Michael?)
With regard to Dominic I was, at first, willing to give him the benefit of any doubt. Once, however, I gained first hand testimony from someone who had received stolen material from him in a trade then, these doubts were removed and his presence here became unacceptable.
Something you should all be very clear about is that this is not a court of law. This is not really even a "public forum" as we do not allow guest postings. This is a community of members who conduct their discussions in public view. Like driving your car on the public roadway, posting on this forum is a privilege rather than a right. The moderators here do have editorial privileges and there are no constitutional issues of free speech involved. Someone banned from this forum is not denied their "freedom of speech" but only access to this podium.
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Apr 15, 2009 15:55:22 GMT -10
Dave .... are you looking for a cage-match with Michael? No, not really... But Michael's quote here is just plain ignorant: Wow, really? I already have the opinion ebay is great place to find and move stolen goods--this is the main reason I don't hardly ever use ebay. If something of value is stolen from you, check for it on ebay.
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Post by unclemasa on Apr 15, 2009 17:04:47 GMT -10
I don't think, with its millions of accounts, that Ebay can be expected to police every item sold on its site. Originally, ebay was a trust business (you and the seller). If you want to hurt someone on Ebay then, give them bad feedback, notify Ebay of your suspicions, call the police etc. Don't expect Ebay to go out and look to verify the integrity of every item offered for sale.
On the other hand, just because dirty business does sometimes take place there does not taint the entire operation. Ebay serves many more honest people than criminals. It has its safeguards and, I'm sure, whenever and wherever it can, works to terminate the accounts of those engaged in the selling of stolen merchandise.
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Post by twoton on Apr 15, 2009 19:38:00 GMT -10
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Post by nepaholic on Apr 16, 2009 3:23:43 GMT -10
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Post by rainforest on Apr 16, 2009 7:46:56 GMT -10
Dave, How dare you say my quotes are ignorant! They are my opinions and based on the evidence that is brought to be seen. All I see is bad advertising without a shred of conviction, prosecution, or documentation. What I am trying to say, is don't say anything and fill these forums of misinformation UNLESS proof is the dominating factor. Yes, the plants look the same, yes the finger points in one direction, but it is up to the authorities to use evidence to make a case (if it ever gets there) Things don't always appear what they tend to be, I recall a case where OJ Simpson was tried and every finger pointed towards him, yet was proven innocent in a court of law, so please don't be waving your flag on conviction before the actual charges are made and the said person is found guilty. Does either Sunbelle or Tony have compelling evidence to prove their case? Let's hope so. Otherwise it is just a witch hunt and the next person they point their finger at might be you!
What I dislike about the whole episode is that Michelle has contributed so little on the forum other than making personal attacks (we all know that Sunbelle isn't taking part in the hybrid registration registry and have based their participation on this forum because of this issue) yet have the time to post on this thread about this sort of thing, plus emailing me personally about this and prior to this she has never communicated with me for anything.
Keep that sort of posting in TPPF they will wave their feathered fans blowing in your direction. I guess having your republican rug pulled right under you makes you get sort of cranky! We understand.
M
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Post by Marcello Catalano on Apr 16, 2009 8:02:49 GMT -10
"I recall a case where OJ Simpson was tried and every finger pointed towards him, yet was proven innocent in a court of law, so please don't be waving your flag on conviction before the actual charges are made and the said person is found guilty." ohi ohi ohi, Michael, the worse example ever!!!! I can already see a rain of comments coming down... Do the words "Rodney King" and "Los Angeles Civil War" tell you anything? ...
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Post by rainforest on Apr 16, 2009 10:07:40 GMT -10
The example set was to demonstrate that the case was poorly slapped together. I am not saying that he is innocent at any means. But again the misinformation, no proof and just hearsay led to this outcome. Isn't what is being said just hearsay and without evidence to the contrary? Get your FACTS, pull your evidence and make your case. Just bad mouthing anyone isn't going to resolve this. And this is what it has been so far on every forum, just bad advertising. I could draw a similar case against Sunbelle. I had sent them a bunch of cuttings of a lot of rare stuff. It was supposed to be a trade of a few items. I sent pollen, cuttings from my established plants and seeds. I haven't heard from them for a very long time. Do I start posting what an unfair person they are and post it in every forum. I just wanted a few things I didn't have. Haven't heard from them in months, years, .... It wasn't until someone intervened and tried to amend this situation that this was resolved. After which time I learned that NONE of the cuttings took, how odd that is that I had sent several people cuttings of similar stuff that everyone else's took quite miraculously and one person even asked if I wanted some back! So whatever for that. But if they had communicated this to me, I would have generously resent them again. Their only other communication to me was to get my current address to send me the plants I had wanted since time began. And now a pm about bad press. Like it has anything to do with me?!? Like get a life, get a private investigator, PAY someone to do the work you need done INSTEAD of advertising it on a public forum. I had a theft, I got it resolved and nobody knew about it. The only person that will give a damn is me because they were my plants and I/we caught the culprit and that ended a life long corruption in Honolulu of all the stolen bonsai, bromeliads, orchids, adeniums, etc. I got results, I didn't have to drag this drama onto everyone, I wasn't seeking pity, I wasn't making public awareness announcements, geez, I just did it! Now how much drama do we need to see before anything (if ever) gets done about their situation? Good Lord! M
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Post by tonyp on Apr 16, 2009 10:42:21 GMT -10
So sorry to burden you with my public awareness announcement. Oh wait no I am not! I have received many thank you messages from quite a few hobby growers.
What amazes me the most is that every time I read one of your posts I figure I can't possibily think any less of you than I already do. But yet again I am proven wrong by your current tirades here. You have sunk to a new low.
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Post by sockhom on Apr 16, 2009 11:51:18 GMT -10
Dave, I guess having your republican rug pulled right under you makes you get sort of cranky! We understand. M Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... Sam, I'll let you deal that one. I have no time with bar brawls . But maybe Michael-moderator will find a way to moderate himself? François.
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obregon562
Nobiles
"I do believe Im feeling stronger everyday."
Posts: 387
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Post by obregon562 on Apr 16, 2009 12:06:06 GMT -10
[Do the words "Rodney King" and "Los Angeles Civil War" tell you anything?] But see, with this kind of senseless viloence, everybody beat on everybody here, people got the crap beat out of them, anger was released, things were burned, bombed, broken; and when the people were finished venting, we were done. Over, nada, goodnight. A little venting can be good for a population, a bad for a few of the individuals who started/tried to stop it. This seems to be happening in our little nep community, although not nearly as fun to watch. People are pissed! Their neps got jacked! Who wouldnt want blood?! And the people who try to stop the venting are pissed, because they in turn get vented on! So now everyone is pissed! All right! Start drawing the battle lines, and get the cage matches ready. This is gonna be good. And when its over, we'll be a happy little community, well, whoever's left that is. Trent, Michelle, and Tony, i hope you get your plants back ASAP, and the SOB who did it caught. Michael, good for you for standing up for the minority. Thats my $0.02. Hell, its so long that more like $0.05.
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Post by rainforest on Apr 16, 2009 12:14:46 GMT -10
Tony, you have a website, why don't you post the "public awareness" there? Shouldn't something of this IMPORTANCE be posted on your site as well? I guess it isn't that important so we'll just build a fire on the forums instead. Let me commend you for that too!
For someone who only sees what he wants to see that can hardly be much said about condemning anyone that is not of your same thinking.
What gets me the most is how you can run a business that you take no precaution for and you might as well leave the door unlocked and put your greenhouses on Google Map so everyone can find it. That's just plain mental!
Invest in some kind of security and take a No-Doze!
M
I recall everyone jumping in to the bandwagon of let's bomb Bagdad a short while ago. I think I was the only one who said not a good idea, let's investigate, let's see what the UN investigators had to say about it? Everyone back then thought of me as the black sheep. Nope, everyone made their conviction and wanted blood. Well, I am curious how many people who said jump still would say jump today! if down the road, they found that Dom had a smaller role and may even be innocent of all charges, wouldn't it be very ridiculous for those who said (without a shadow of a doubt) he did it, come back and apologize? So until we have all the evidence, it's best not to say anything. A public awareness doesn't do anything to help. It actually lends itself to make the true culprits to go into hiding. Think of me as "low" but it's better than being stupid stupid stupid!
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Post by tonyp on Apr 16, 2009 14:28:33 GMT -10
So basically I am stupid in your words.
Been nice knowing you.. NOT
Sam delete my account there is no point in my being a part of this forum.
Tony
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Apr 16, 2009 14:48:11 GMT -10
Hey Michael,
I don't know, I think you feel like you're being personally attached by criticism. For years you have been saying things like, 'if it weren't for me, people would not know to grow Nepenthes from seed'. I think you are in your own world because everyone I ever talked with in this hobby about the subject has mentioned they would like to grow Nepenthes from seed, except for this one fellow named Ed Munn. Your BS may impress some people, but not me. Did you invent the Internet too?
Are you going to get off your butt and find and name a species of Nepenthes; or are you going to continue to uselessly criticize N. flava every time it is mentioned as you would have picked a better name?
And I still think that since the US helped create the Saddam Hussein monster, we were/are at least part responsible for the problems he has caused. We should have taken him out during Desert Storm when we had a more competent president. BTW, I voted for Obama in the primary and for Nader in the general election. What Republican rug? The content of your oral diarrhea style of writing keeps indicating to me you're living in some fantasy land.
I'm not sure what the OJ jury was thinking, but there is a California law which instructs a jury to find a defendant innocent if any of the evidence presented to them was manufactured. Some of the blood evidence was tainted, so why did Ito (the judge) even allow the tainted evidence in his court room? He should have called a mistrial and spared us all that debacle.
I publicly thank Tony for his warning. I hope this problem gets resolved soon for Sunbelle and if whoever this Dom is is innocent then people who made erroneous complaints against him certainly should apologize.
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Post by sdcarnivores on Apr 16, 2009 15:44:02 GMT -10
Rainforest has been a revolutionary leader on the issue of fertilizers. He lifted hobbyists out of the flat earth dark ages about the benefits of fertilizer. Human being live with their heads in their asses to varying degrees as their natural state. I am glad He was able to come in and bring everyone a bit closer to the outside light, because God knows not even the jaws of life could pry most of the people at that time out of their proverbial rectal cages...
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