N. thorelii x truncata variability

[ellisonk001]

I have three N. thorelii x truncata and they are all quite different.

N. thorelli x truncata #1 (Green)


N. thorelli x truncata #2 (Red)




N x Red Dragon (N. thorelli x truncata)




What do yours look like???

[rainforest]

Different forms/clones of thorelii were used in making the same cross of thorelii x truncata.

M

[leeb]

Actually given that N. thorelli has never been in cultivation it is likely that different species have been crossed with N. truncata; probably N. smilesii, N. kampotiana or N. kongkandana.

LeeB.

[leeb]

And according to some of the discussions elsewhere on this website some are also hybrids with N. bokorensis.

Now there are people in South East Asia looking for the real N. thorelii, the one with amplexicaul leaf bases; and if they find it they will presumably bring it into cultivation.
And then someone will want to form hybrids with it.

Won't that then really cause confusion with N. thorelli hybrids and N. "thorelli" hybrids.

Perhaps by then someone will have invented a really cheap and easy to use DNA testing kit that can be used to identify the parentage of all the mysterious Nepenthes hybrids floating around.

We can but live in hope.

LeeB.

[sdcarnivores]

Jul 27, 2009 18:13:30 GMT -10 leeb said:

And according to some of the discussions elsewhere on this website some are also hybrids with N. bokorensis.

Now there are people in South East Asia looking for the real N. thorelii, the one with amplexicaul leaf bases; and if they find it they will presumably bring it into cultivation.
And then someone will want to form hybrids with it.

Won't that then really cause confusion with N. thorelli hybrids and N. "thorelli" hybrids.

Perhaps by then someone will have invented a really cheap and easy to use DNA testing kit that can be used to identify the parentage of all the mysterious Nepenthes hybrids floating around.

We can but live in hope.

LeeB.

I have honestly never heard of this supposed lack of "real" thorelii in cultivation. Even if it's true, it's neither here nor there. DNA testing would be rather useless considering you'd be trying to call one particular plant seen by one collector the "real" species when there is likely only a very minimal genetic difference. It's all a matter of what we choose to name things and how we try to separate them. The real "differences" between these species and variants thereof can often be arbitrary and negligible though.

[leeb]

sdcarnivores,
there is a section on this website called "hot topics in Nepenthes taxonomy".
Go to it and look at the sub-sections labelled N. thorelii and the Indochinese species index.
You will find out more, but the short version is that N. thorelii appears to be a distinct species that was collected and named once.
Later Nepenthes plants were collected in Indo-China and were assumed to be N. thorelii because that was the available name; so they were labelled as it.
It has since become apparent that there are a number of Nepenthes species in that area, all distinct, and most brought into cultivation mistakenly as N. thorelii.
The species named above are all examples of this.
This mess is starting to be sorted out.
However N. thorelii itself has yet to be rediscovered and brought into cultivation.
The original herbarian specimens are available and are distinct from anything in cultivation.
In this case the distinctions are not arbitrary and negligible; for a start it is the only Indo-Chinese species with an amplexicaul leaf base.
So it appears it may be the most distinct indo-chinese species.
As the species is distinct morphologically it's DNA should be too.

LeeB.

[sockhom]

Hello,

sdcarnivores,
you should really take a look at the section mentionned by LeeB:
lhnn.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ht&action=display&thread=2768

You will see things are not that arbitrary


By the way, Keith's N x Red Dragon (N. thorelli x truncata)
is likely to be N x Red Dragon (N. bokorensis x truncata). The striped peristome, vaulted lid ans shape of the leaves are good hints.

Truly,

François.

[ellisonk001]

François,

Thank you for the insight on the probable true make up of the N. x Red Dragon.

I didn't mean to stir the hornets nest on the N. thorelli controversy....

Regards,

Keith

[sockhom]

Jul 28, 2009 2:47:36 GMT -10 ellisonk001 said:

François,


I didn't mean to stir the hornets nest on the N. thorelli controversy....

Regards,

Keith

Oh come on Keith, don't you worry ;D.
We have to get out of this mess so you can shoot on the nest as much as you want!


François.

[Dave Evans]

These are the hybrid formulas I thought of while looking at the photos. I suppose there is a chance some of the mothers were hybrids, but they look like straight F1 hybrids to me.


N. smilesii * N. truncata



N. kampotiana * N. truncata



N. bokorensis * N. truncata


There is a very good reason they look so different, they were made with different species, or hybrids of those three species.

[lchsu]

Just to show more variability: this is EP's thorelli (or whatever) x truncata (b)

[obregon562]

that could pass off as pure bokorensis! can we see the leaves actually? beautiful peristome regardless!

[ellisonk001]

Jul 28, 2009 20:49:01 GMT -10 Dave Evans said:

These are the hybrid formulas I thought of while looking at the photos. I suppose there is a chance some of the mothers were hybrids, but they look like straight F1 hybrids to me.

N. smilesii * N. truncata

N. kampotiana * N. truncata

N. bokorensis * N. truncata

There is a very good reason they look so different, they were made with different species, or hybrids of those three species.

Dave,

Thank you very much for your feedback! This is very helpful.

Keith

[lchsu]

Jul 29, 2009 18:25:42 GMT -10 obregon562 said:

that could pass off as pure bokorensis! can we see the leaves actually? beautiful peristome regardless!

Here's a picture of the leaves:

[audia4]

i have a thor x truncata, but mine looks different form all of them.. mine fat and has red peristome