Breeders' Question - N. "thorelii" seed

[lamwn]

Hello,
just wanted to ask a quick question: Are seed produced on a "thorelii" or "thorelii" hybrid pod parent usually very small compared to typical Nep seeds?
I ask because I have made several hybrdis to date with "thorelii" primary hybrids as the pod parent, and the resultant seed have all shown to be very small, and gave me low germination rates. the seed are just a bit larger than the infertile seed of other Nep fruits. I'm not sure if I did something wrong, but every thing I did with these I did also with other hybrids which gave good success.
I've seen this with tobaica x 'thorelii', 'thorelii'x (spect x north), 'thorelii' x truncata 'A' and 'C', and 'thorelii' x TM.
I've only so far ever had success with 1 of the t x (sxn) hybrids.
Recently did a few nice crosses using thor x trunc 'A' and the fruit swelled quite large, but the seed emerged as small as usual. just sowed them today and I'm really hoping they will germinate.
thanks
Lam

[walterg]

I have noticed this also. I have sown a great many very small seeds of "Viking/Globosa" hybrids this year and have very low germination so far. Even more strikingly tiny are the seeds with "ventrata" as the pollen parent. I have produced a few myself and purchased some from some folks in Thailand, and the seeds have all been so small, almost dustlike, that I have little hope that they are viable. I suspect ventrata is shooting blanks.

[boris]

I've crossed (thorelii x tm) x lowii and the seeds looked very tiny. Not dust like but I was in doubt that they are viable because of the size and the small embryo. Well after long waiting (about 10 weeks) I've got now the first 11 seedlings. Here is a photo how they looked:

[shawnintland]

Walter - I think a lot of seed now on the 'market' from Thailand is 'first bloom' off smallish plants. Especially the Vikings. I've had a few 'Viking' and 'Tiger' plants pump out those tiny pods of dust as their first try, but the next time they have been larger, 'normal' pods and seeds. I've got a whole big batch of plants labeled N. ventrata that are beginning to lift the lid on the greenhouses so I hope I'll get some flowering action before long!

I'm anxiously awaiting publication of the work done by a few researchers here in Thailand the last few months...maybe we will finally have some sorting done and know what to really call our plants. Even with N. kongadanga, N. Thai, N. bokorensis, etc. all getting described I've still got a few benches of 'mirabilis-type' plants that I don't know what to call! From what I've understood, nobody has, or has seen, a N. thorelii since it was described...so what exactly are all these plants we've seen labeled N. thorelii?

Lamwn - That would be a good question to put to the Thai growers over here regarding how frequent it is to have such small pods/seeds. We've all got bunches of these mis-label plants around! I'll forward this to a Thai friend (aphos)who can ask in Thai and see if we get any responses.

[pattarawut]

Hi forum mates,

Regarding the seed size which originates from N. thorelii parent, I would say that I frequently found it. In the past, I saw this effect not only our hand, but also other Thai breeders who I traded the seed with. However, the survival rate is one of the problem, as they suggested to me.

But, for few Thai breeders, they have a little problem for germinate 'dust'-like seeds. Thy can achieve plant propagation as general size seeds. In my hand, I usually success to germinate this dust seed, but due to low-maintainance, I always lost it.

The information above is the incidence that I found it. I hope this information would be help.

Regards,
Pattarawut

[rainforest]

I have not seen every species of nepenthes seeds, but for the most part seeds have a very well developed embryo. I have seen seeds which have very thin, almost an empty mid section. These could be due to infertility issues or even developmental problems related to the plant. Most people who do fertilize their plants on a regular basis, should not have a problem with development of the seeds. But so many factors play a part that it would be difficult to pinpoint a cause for any given circumstance.
I have many times applauded the fertility of wild collected seeds. The embryo portion of the seed is very well developed. Captive seeds can also look like this is the plant has adequate nutrient supplies as the seeds develop.
Many people feel that if a plant is capable of making a spike, then it can support seed development. This is not always the case. I find it more important to fertilize (especially nitrogen during seed development) than when it is just for making big pitchers.

M

[wijaya]

This is very interesting, thought of sharing what I had before with this N. thorelii/whatever?

I got some seeds called N. thorelii giant, to my surprised the seeds are much smaller size comparing with other nepenthes seeds I sown before. Of the sowing I only managed to get 2 germination out of 20-30 seeds, then later on I lost the two seedlings .

I also have a female N. thorelii/ had been blooming frequently, not a stress flower as I got lots of pitchers also got the basals growing at the same time when she bloomed, so the plant is in perfect health, so far I have tried several times pollinating with several species and hybrids pollen, all turn into seeds pods but inside got small seeds, some even don't have embryo, and out of several tries I have zero germination.

Just passed few days, I tried to pollinate the same plant again, I got three spikes, I cut down one and left 2 spikes and on one spike I cut the top part flower, see how this time goes, I pollinated with N. reinwardtiana and N. ventricosa x spathulata. I will update on it later.

Another female blooming is my N. thorelii x campanulata (EP's) the flower size is same as N. thorelii, will wait to see how big this seeds pods will developed (if pollination is successful) and will see how big the seeds and embryo on this one, I tried pollinating using N. xDyeriana, N. ventricosa x spathulata and I will try to use the same cross to do the F2 hybrid of this one.
I will also update on this one later on.

Ed

[Dave Evans]

I think the species involved with having small seed from Indochina could be N. kampotiana its closer relatives...

I do know N. campanulata seed is rather short and heavier than other nep seeds. Ditto for N. rajah.

I think these seeds look normal:


Perhaps, like Michael mentions, better feeding/fertilizing could have the effect to increase the size of the cotolydons, but different species and hybrids do make different looking seeds. The color can also be different.

[wijaya]

These are my current crossed, seeds pods still developing:
of the N. thorelii female


of the N. thorelii x campanulata female


I will update again when the seeds pods ripen.

Ed

[Dave Evans]

Hey Ed,

What does your "thorelii" look like? Maybe we could give it a better ID with some photographs...

Your second plant N. thorelii? X N. campanulata inflorescence looks just like the inflorescence of straight N. campanulata.

[wijaya]

Hi Dave,

As for my thorelii, I posted before the details in pitcher plant forum, I forgot it was identified as what, anyway I will try to dig out the thread later.

I never see the female inflorescence of campanulata, I only have the male campa flowered for me. Thanks for the information.

Ed

[Dave Evans]

I just sowed some N. smilesii last night.

Before I sow species seed, I photograph it on a paper printed with a foot long metric scale. This way I have a permanent record of the seed. I plan on submitting these photos to the CP Data Base once I collect a decent amount of them. This, when someone gets seed, they will be able to double check if it what it is claimed to be even before planting it.

Anyway, N. smilesii seed from two locations looks the same (good thing there!) and they are also the shortest nep seeds I have ever seen. The seeds are heavy compared to other species seeds and I rather doubt they could be spread much by wind.

[sockhom]

Very good idea, Dave.
I'm looking forward to see all this material on the CP database in the future.

By the way, the pyrophytic species of Indochina seem to all share the same type of seeds (short and heavy). I'd like to know why.


François.

PS: Your smilesii seeds are viable by the way. Mine have germinated .

[philgreen]

Oct 5, 2009 8:49:58 GMT -10 Dave Evans said:

Before I sow species seed, I photograph it on a paper printed with a foot long metric scale. This way I have a permanent record of the seed. I plan on submitting these photos to the CP Data Base once I collect a decent amount of them. This, when someone gets seed, they will be able to double check if it what it is claimed to be even before planting it.

Great idea Dave, I look forward to seeing the results.

Would be great to combine this with pic's of the various seed pods. Richardo (albermalesound) seems to be photographing seed pods - I've seen some of his pic's.

[Dave Evans]

I do not believe the seed pods (less so than the actual seed) are very informational... But the shape of the whole inflorescence certainly gives a lot more detail and hence information about the identity.

I can only photograph the inflorescences on plants I'm growing, of course, so for the most part I'm only able to take photos of the seeds I receive in the mail. But who knows, Richardo might find some interesting trends in the shapes of the seed pods...