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Post by diodio on Jul 8, 2009 11:04:33 GMT -10
Hi,
I can confirm, a friend of mine has just bought one and he explained me that they were effectively grown from seed gave by Stewart.
Diodio.
PS:That's my first post, I didn't introduce me on the forum, but I'm going to do it soon ;D .
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Post by Syracuse on Jul 15, 2009 5:12:57 GMT -10
Hello!
Yes. You have a good memory. ;D (but my plant comes from a particular)
Stewart has auctioned seeds in the CPUK in 2007 and Wistuba won.
Louis
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Post by rainforest on Jul 23, 2009 7:45:42 GMT -10
I find it interesting that wild collected seeds were auctioned off for sale. This sends the wrong message for discovering a new species distributing the potential gene pool of seedlings into collections and propagators. This leaves the door open for poaching and illegal trade.
Hopefully MORE seed original stock will be circulated and retained so captive grown plants will have a better appeal. If prices remain affordable, this will also contribute to safety of that species in the wild.
M
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Post by sockhom on Jul 23, 2009 21:25:43 GMT -10
I find it interesting that wild collected seeds were auctioned off for sale. This sends the wrong message for discovering a new species distributing the potential gene pool of seedlings into collections and propagators. This leaves the door open for poaching and illegal trade. M Hi Michael, Because of my limited english, I'm not quite sure I have understood your thought. Are you saying that discovering a new species then sending seeds to propagators and collections is a bad thing? Thanks for clarifying. François.
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Post by rsivertsen on Jul 24, 2009 5:43:20 GMT -10
Hi Michael, Because of my limited english, .... François. Hey François, Your English is pretty good! WAY better than my French! (I'm always apologizing for my "French") - Rich
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Post by rainforest on Jul 24, 2009 13:18:37 GMT -10
In any language, when one AUCTIONS anything from seeds to old Louis Vuitton trunks, the object is to sell it to the HIGHEST bidder.
What my inference is referring to is that these seeds were blocked off to the highest bidders. If I paid $10 per seed and from ten seeds only two survived, what do you suppose my price will be to sell them to you for?
My feeling about growing nepenthes is that this shouldn't be a price war for who can spend the most money. It should be about species survival and even given to people who are good growers and breeders who can perpetuate the species and perhaps make some money on it at the same time. I am against price gouging, artificial price retention, holding back to keep a species rare or even limiting how many plants are sold annually (like so many of what we already are experiencing in today's species).
Nepenthes doesn't have to be a rip off! People make nepenthes expensive. Most of us have already acquired the skills in making nepenthes grow (WELL). I don't believe we need to pay a stipend to get there! For those who create this artificial myth and price gouging, I say BOO to!
Collectors of seeds of a new species should make a new species available by seeds to those growers (or individuals) to be propagated and massed distributed. I don't believe a lot of seeds to go to one individual who paid a high price for him to grow out three clones (for tc) and discard the rest. History will repeat itself and for those who doesn't speak English, I am referring to MONOPOLY (look it up if you don't know my meaning).
M
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Jul 24, 2009 13:30:42 GMT -10
Dear Michael, I don't really know what you are protesting here... Haven't you noticed we have close a hundred species in cultivation with some species showing many different varieties. How do you suppose we have them if nobody could afford them? In fact I have so many seedlings coming up, I don't even have room to buy big plants anymore. You've mentioned black truncata so many times, yet all I've heard is they are in production and if production mean making cuttings, then how does one make cuttings and sell off their limited stock at the same time? You take cuttings and put them back into production and then, a year or so later you can take another round of cuttings. Releasing one or two cuttings because people keep asking for them is then interpreted by you as some sort of unsavory scheme just seems ridiculous to me. Sorry I'm not buying it. The time scale for making a profit from a particular new plant is very short lived. The prices drop like a rock over a two to three year period. Do you have a staff of people you pay to run your operation? If not, you have a lot less overhead costs than some other nurseries and maybe you can afford to give things away for free--which would be great! I find it interesting that wild collected seeds were auctioned off for sale. This sends the wrong message for discovering a new species distributing the potential gene pool of seedlings into collections and propagators. This leaves the door open for poaching and illegal trade. Umm no, see the difference is Wistuba wasn't the only person who received the seed, there were a lot of people who received them. Also, this does not encourage poaching! How do you make the connection? Legal collection followed by legal trading encourages poaching? Huh??? Everything about the way Stewart has handled distributing the seeds is the opposite of poaching =--> a good example others can follow.
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Post by rainforest on Jul 24, 2009 15:52:30 GMT -10
Uhumm, let me see, N. rajah, N. clipeata, N. villosa, N. spectabilis, N. rafflesiana, N. fusca, N. hamata, N. aristolochioides, N. argentii, N. viellardii, N. madagascariensis, N. rigidifolia, N. benstonei, N. beccariana, N. attenboroughii, N. bongso, N. diatas, N. deaniana, N. densiflora, N. dubia, N. ephippiata, N. carunculata, N. campanulata, N. boschiana, N. bellii, N. adnata, danseri, gracillima, N. insignis, N. khasiana, N. lamii, N. glandulifera, N. faizaliana, N. eymae, N. eustachya, N. sumatrana, N. distillatoria, N. chaniana, N. danseri, N. hirsuta, N. hispida, N. izumiae, N. lavicloa, N. lingulata, N. longifolia, N. macrophylla, N. lowii, N. macrovulgaris N. mirabilis echinostoma, N. mira, N. mindanaoensis, N. mikei, N. merrilliana, N. mapuluensis, N. neoguineensis, N. petiolata, N. philippinensis, N. pervillei, N. pilosa, N. platychila (will the REEL platychila please stand up), N. ovata, N. pectinata, N. northiana, N. singalana, N. stenophylla, N. spectabilis, N. spathulata, N. talangensis, N. tobaica, N. xiphioides, N. voguelii, N. tomoriana, N. treubiana, N. veitchii, N. tentaculata, N. rhombicaulis, ....um, If there were just one of each listed then I guess this would qualify for the "MANY DIFFERENT VARIETIES"? in cultivation.
"cuttings?" Never brought up the topic of cuttings. If you need a wake up call to my soap box speech, I'll capitalize it for you. WE NEED TO MAKE MORE SPECIES FROM SEEDS, WHETHER WE MAKE THESE CROSSES WITH OUR OWN PLANTS OR USE WILD POLLEN ON OUR CULTIVATED PLANTS. WE NEED TO GET AWAY FROM TC PLANT MATERIAL AND FOCUS MORE ON SEED-ORIGINAL PLANTS. (tell me when you see the word "cuttings") WE HAVE FALLEN TO BUY AND PROPAGATE TC-RETARDED PLANTS IN PLACE OF ACTUAL TRUE SPECIES FROM SEEDS. ONLY THEN CAN WE GROW THESE PLANTS BETTER ADAPTED AND SUITED TO OUR OWN GROWING CONDITIONS.
I cannot speak for other growers, yet I don't have a large staff that just trims dead or dried pitchers from my plants in the nursery. Why does one need a big staff (unless they are totally hopelessly LAZEE!), Exotica Plants have done it with just a husband and wife staff that do everything from pollination, seed collecting, sowing, germinating, transplanting, labeling (by hand mind you), and further evaluation, and then repeat the cycle of making cuttings and rooting them for sale. For those who have a big staff, well we know how the economy crisis works, sorry growers who have a big staff, the word is called cutbacks. I think EP suggests a good strategy for growing, keeping costs down and perhaps showing a marginal profit. EP still grow, propagate and sell species which have been around for a while. N. ventricosa is sort of common, yet they have been able to continue their lines of the true species in cultivar selection. PERHAPS others who grow these plants that become WORTHLESS as TC clones should observe this wake up call that while a species may lose some value, if they were to propagate them as SEED ORIGINALS and get off their fat a**e* they might learn a thing or two. Yes, TC clones lose their value rapidly and why wouldn't they? Imagine a greenhouse full of N. Mirandas (hundreds of thousands) what's the difference between N. Miranda and a new rare species if only a single clone exists!
TC clones of N. clipeata has been in circulation for quite some time now. Yet there is great concerns over poaching of this species till today. TC propagation has not slowed down the illegal trade of this species, but has increased the demand for viable male and female clones since the few clones on the market may be all of one single seed clone. The product of monopoly is to hold all of the cards. If I produced just a single clone of N. clipeata (rajah, lowii, macrophylla, etc.) then you'd always have to come to me to get them. I am not referring to legal collecting (if ever there was a such a thing), I am referring to what happens when the seeds ends up in the possession of people who use it not for the sake of propagation for perpetuation, or even to establish a blood line, but rather to monopolize the sale of a particular species for personal gains.
M
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Jul 24, 2009 16:58:57 GMT -10
"cuttings?" Never brought up the topic of cuttings. If you need a wake up call to my soap box speech, I'll capitalize it for you. ha LOL, dude I can't stop laughing! Ahh that was good. Tell me, how does one make more plants from their seed grown plants, without taking cuttings? Making species seed is finally possible in cultivation with the help of the internet, but when my plants flower that doesn't mean there is an opposite sexed plant of the same species, let alone the same variety to cross it with. Hello??? Do you honestly think every Nepenthes cultivator is blessed with the ability to maintain hundreds of large plants like you do? Do you understand how big N. clipeata gets? I can't even cultivate one plant of it to flowering size 'cause it is too big. I also think people have gone a little nutty with this species. Why is it so tantalizing anyway? N. gracilis makes for a better looking plant. If people really wanted to grow this species, they would collect seed and leave the plants alone. So who has done this? No one I'm aware of. Poor example. And then you act like the one person who has bothered to make plants available is ripping us off. You don't make any sense to me. How about folks that have private TC labs they keep super rare plants in, but never offer them for sale? They have plants like N. edwardsiana and clones of N. clipeata we'll never see. That seems a lot worse to me than people who actually do supply plants. Another one about N. clipeata, why the hell did they pollinate the flower of the female, which later died, with any other pollen than N. clipeata? You should focus your criticism on what is or went wrong, not on what is right. So is anyone going to collect seed from Gunung Kelam again? Or they just going to remove more clones from the wild and continue to kill them?
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Post by rsivertsen on Jul 25, 2009 1:55:38 GMT -10
So is anyone going to collect seed from Gunung Kelam again? Or they just going to remove more clones from the wild and continue to kill them? Has anyone seen N. clpeata in G. Kelam recently? They are totally extinct in the wild as far as I know. They were all destroyed in a fire several years ago that wiped them all out, and none have been seen there since to my knowledge. There were rumors back in the mid '90's that about a dozen plants survived, but I have yet to see or hear any confirmation of this. Chi'en Lee has made attempts to find them in other hills and mountains nearby where the locals say they have seen them, but so far, they have all turned out to be some other species of Nepenthes. We have the 3 clones that Wistuba offers, and clone 3 has flowered male. There are other female plants out there, but their owners are keeping very quiet, one was displayed in the ICPS Conference held in Japan. The first one to get both males and females in flower at the same time will have a global monopoly on this species. The ICPS N. clipeata project has done very little to my knowledge to address this issue. If there is any truth to those rumors, then it should be an imperative to harvest some more seed and get them safely into TC as soon as possible, and several well known TC labs at that, so that no one has any monopoly on them! Chances are that they are still too small yet to flower if they did survive. - Rich
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Post by nepsaroundthehouse on Jul 25, 2009 5:34:24 GMT -10
This area of seed collection and tc culture is far beyond my knowledge and experience, but here's a few things I'd like to toss out for the discussion.
Seed collecting:
1. When seed is collected in the wild, how do you know it is a pure species until you grow it out? Wasn't that an issue with the seed grown N. platychila from BE that variations were appearing that cast doubt as to whether it was the true species or not? What about the N. clipeata xx clipeata x eymae debate? So until you grow out the seed to adult Nepenthes, one may not know they actually have the true species from which to make more of.
2. Who monitors the seed collection as to its authenticity? I only say this because there seems to be a lot more seed for sale on ebay or being sent through the mail that claims to be from N. rajah or N. villosa. But who knows what it may actually turn out to be?
3. Stability in the countries of origin. I have no doubt that there's many new species of Nepenthes to be discovered, but going into countries of instability to collect seed may be fairly difficult. I would also suspect that whoever does collect the seed has some sort of knowledge about Nepenthes and can document the seed's validity. Going to collect seed takes time and money to do that as well.
4. Is making species seed available from home grown known species a viable business option? I'm guessing that to grow out multiple clones of true species to adulthood takes time and space. Especially those slower growing highlanders. Then seed can be collected and made available. But this does take time and money to do all of this. And to just break even, or do it for species diversity may not be a viable option for growers out there.
Just a few thoughts.
J
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Post by rainforest on Jul 25, 2009 6:02:12 GMT -10
The entire board of that project is a scam. Look at the members, isn't it strange that every member has a conflict of interest here. If anyone thinks that this board is going to save this species, I seriously doubt it. AW had the chance of putting seed collected into tc and what does he do? Make three (3 is suspicious, more like one or two). If I were to put a rare species into tc, wouldn't you think you would make at least ten? I don't buy it when they say it is so very costly to keep a clone in vitro and sustain it. Many labs have several hundred individuals of a plant that can be kept alive in a shaker or even left growing on agar or even a liquid media. Just left on the shelf with the other hundreds of plants for sale and just replated every so often. A species such as N. clipeata can be later taken from this holding area and begin splicing up for sale when the other three clones (single clone) has been proven to be all sterile, or males or just worthless after time.
N. clipeata doesn't get any bigger than a truncata. They can make multiple growths/leads but nobody says you have to keep all of them. This is your fine example of taking cuttings and distributing them. You just need one lead for it to make flowers.
As for captive grown seed making. The internet does play a role in helping match possible species mating. I have once brought up the potential if all the forums could come together under a general agreement that posting pollen or females in flower for all to know would be the best contribution to nepenthes perpetuation. But this is to be seen. Other forums have so many requirements before this can ever happen.
Cuttings is still not the only way that this breeding program can come about. I feel that there has been more seed collecting and gathering in the past few years than ever before. There is a need to propagate and make seed originals. Whether this has been from my constant rants about how we need seed originals or just by accident. The hobbyists and smaller grower will make the species more available than larger nurseries and collectors. I don't see how cuttings have to play a role in making seeds. Can anyone paint a picture to show me how cuttings is the way to make seed originals?
There's pollen storage, even if for a period of a year. Chances are that your male plant will flower again. Males tend to flower regularly once they begin to. Many plants even have axillary side branches making a spike after the main one starts off. This is where an international pollen exchange is needed. If I were to post pollen of species A in this forum, it should repeat itself in every major forum as well. This is a long term goal that I'd like to see happen.
So you think that the tc clones of N. clipeata after all these years is a fair price? And in Euro dollars at that! You are amazing! I can't figure you out. Of course he isn't ripping us off, he's GOUGING us out!
Do you know something we don't know or is this another example of FACT or OPINION?
Do you know where I can read the transcript of this event? Or is this another example of FACT or OPINION?
M
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Jul 25, 2009 7:55:18 GMT -10
When seed is collected in the wild, how do you know it is a pure species until you grow it out? Wasn't that an issue with the seed grown N. platychila from BE that variations were appearing that cast doubt as to whether it was the true species or not? What about the N. clipeata xx clipeata x eymae debate? So until you grow out the seed to adult Nepenthes, one may not know they actually have the true species from which to make more of. Uhh yeah, that is what I was refering to. N. clipeata has flowered in cultivation multipule times and even though pure N. clipeata pollen was avaible, they didn't use it on all the flowers. Instead they created a bunch of horticultural hybrids including the endlessly confusing N. clipeata * N. clipeata * N. eymae. This was a very poor choice on the part of the folks that were involved with the growing and pollination process. What were they thinking? Even at that time everyone involved knew how rare N. clipeata is and this could very well be the last chance to make pure species seed in cultivation. Michael, you are under the impression this is my opinion and not fact. Please learn some facts before trying to paint me as clueless as yourself. Maybe if you didn't spend so much energy on bad mouthing people they would actually talk with you; and in turn you might learn some things. Hmm...
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Jul 25, 2009 8:05:26 GMT -10
T don't see how cuttings have to play a role in making seeds. Can anyone paint a picture to show me how cuttings is the way to make seed originals? Because the more females people have in their collections, the more likely there will be overlapping flowering events from which pure species seeds can be made. Apparently, there is a female shortage in most collections, while most of my plants happen to be female. So I'm taking female cuttings and selling them. And no they are not going to be free because just making them costs me plenty of money. What good does it do me to sit on my females and watch them flower, but have no pollen to use on them? But then you seem to be indicating selling my females to people willing to pay for them is some sort of scam. Which is it? You cannot have it both ways. Either people are going put up and make an investment of time and money in their hobby or they aren't. From Joel: Yes it is, but the resulting plants will cost more than the TC copy plants. TC is a short cut to mass producing many individuals over a much shorter period of time, so it saves the producer money and time on a per plant produced basis. Seed grown for sale means more expensive per plant.
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Post by rainforest on Jul 25, 2009 9:28:06 GMT -10
You keep on using words like "multiple" and "all" a lot. Again, FACT or OPINION? There was one flowering of eymae that I know of and yes they did a hybrid cross. The fact remains that what few clones that are in the trade are still unknown and their history sketchy. If sources posted what their clones were (i.e. Wistuba clone A = male, clone B = male, clone u=male, etc) but this will never happen, as we know it. Why disclose FACTS about something if this may hinder sales. If you didn't l know what you were buying theoretically you'd buy them all hoping that a female exist among the clones.
Again is this FACT or OPINION? Post a thread showing that this is fact and not what you deducted based on OPINIONATED experience. I don't like when urban legends are created based on assumed facts. I guess "bad mouthing" is like going against the status quo here. Just because my views are different than the majority doesn't say that I am bad mouthing people. I am just speculating the ideas of what if. If they sound very real and threatening, then these are more factual than theory.
M
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