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Post by rainforest on Jun 27, 2008 16:02:07 GMT -10
I have a few new discoveries to post and will back these with photos when I can get around to take them. I have been busy experimenting and putting myself in a nepenthes' plant body for once and see what it does to grow well. I have discovered while many do grow in an acidic media, many prefer a media which trades balances between acid and base. While many grow embedded in mosses and soil components that mimic acid media, the fine root hairs prefers a media of a base/alkaline nature. My first experience with this is seeing how the healthiest roots actually cling deeply embedded into a porous surface of cement even when the main soil was a peat, bark mixture. I have had many mesh pots with growing nepenthes actually send down roots that attack/attach to the cement tile wall material which supported these pots. Roots would penetrate into the cement base and the plant actually transformed into a different sturdier more vigorous substance.
I will try to postulate my thinking regarding this trend, and like how fertilizers have paved the way we grow nepenthes, this new treatment of acid/base relationship will also change cultivation for the better.
Michael
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Post by lamwn on Jun 27, 2008 18:09:55 GMT -10
Hi Michael, while waiting for more of your input on this topic, I just wanted to thank you for your very useful advice for me previously. Although I was too lazy to transplant some of the larger plants, a simple addition of some taiwanese orchid substrate (which is meant to buffer pH up) to the surface of some of my plants really helped improve the pitcher longevity. On one particular hookeriana, it is now carrying 4 instead of the previous 2 pitchers per growth. Hope to hear more from you on this. thanks Lam
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Post by rainforest on Jun 28, 2008 7:55:45 GMT -10
Thanks Lamwn for your input of results. I still don't have any specific quantitative measure of ratio or what to add to a mix, further experimentation will eventually propose a formula. I have even just added coral chips into the surface of a media of a broken down media and have noticed regain in growth from an otherwise weakly declining plant. I will try to post photos. Unfortunately I haven't photographed many plants that appeared weak-near death and now only have the "after" appearance of how they appear now. I believe this to be another breakthrough for the cultivation of nepenthes. Until now, I have used this approach with plants/hybrids/species that grow naturally on around limestone substrates. But lately have tried this on many other species that do not.
Michael
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Post by rainforest on Jul 2, 2008 15:00:11 GMT -10
Here is an example of a newly potted N. thorelii x merrilliana seedling planted in fresh media ( bark mulch/perlite/cinders/coral chips) with a surface layer of additional coral chips. The newer growths already shows evidence of this transformation process. Plants grown in a basic media tend to get more leathery in foliage and pitcher substance. Older soft tissue growths tend to shrivel up and fall behind the newly formed leaves. I will update progress of this plant as time goes by. This is a small weak seedling of N. truncata x TM showing new evidenced growth of firm thickness. Note that this is just an overlay of coral mixed basic "rocks" added to the surface layer. Here is the example of the new leaf. Note the rigidity of this and the thickness of the peduncle/tendril ratio. Perhaps coincidence, a basic media also eliminates the red speckled leaves either because of pH adjustment, chemical imbalance or other factors not well known. On matured plants, the addition of coral chips usually make them flower. M
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Post by cloudsitter on Jul 3, 2008 15:54:16 GMT -10
Great!
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Post by idontlikeforms on Jul 15, 2008 11:23:40 GMT -10
Hi guys.
I'm suspicious that one of the reasons why those plants of yours are attaching to cement is because the plant is specifically craving calcium.
I've read that calcium moves very slowly in the phloem. If I am not mistaken, pitchers are pumping nutrients into the plant via the phloem. Correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't read anything that says this. I'm just guessing this based on how other plants regularly move nutrients.
Personally I feed my Neps very small fish pellets bi-weekly. The pellets are dark brown but very quickly bloat and then turn a pale tan color in the pitcher fluid. The pitcher fluid discolors initially too but within a few days turns clear again. The pellets last this way for quite some time before coming apart in the pitcher fluid. I notice also that the Neps grow the fastest within two days of being fed. The pellets' main ingredient is fish meal(ground up fish). I suspect what is happening is that the Neps are rapidly digesting the fish protein but the fish bones are taking much longer. I think the tan bloated remains of the pellets must be the bones. So I think that either a)the Nep pitchers are absorbing calcium very slowly or b)they are not even absorbing all of it and some of it is remaining in the fluid undigested.
If my suspicions are correct, Neps are absorbing the majority of their calcium through their roots rather than through their pitchers. This may also explain why your plants that have coral chips in their media(which is largely calcium) are growing sturdier. Any thoughts?
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Post by rainforest on Jul 15, 2008 16:40:36 GMT -10
Firstly, nepenthes rarely if ever captures any fish in their traps, secondly, even if fish bones are ground up in the meal, it shouldn't matter since the breakdown of food materials through pitcher walls are primarily for nitrogen consumption (insects, small vertibrates, bird poop, fruits, to name a few) and insects are not high in calcium in their make up. The roots of nepenthes have developed far more than just to absorb calcium. They are distributed as a nutrient collector for all nutrients like a fine mesh net. They are most developed in areas where they occur the highest flow of water/nutrients. Roots will not grow and develop in media which is dry or lack water absorbing qualities. This topic of basic media is to show that aside from an acid environment, many nepenthes thrive on basic ground soil to advance their development and productivity. I have found that many nepenthes will actually get larger and produce better larger pitchers when grown on a substrate of calcium origin media. Thus N. northiana develops huge pitchers when their roots are embedded in a small patch of soil in between crevices of pure limestone. Whereas plants grown purely in a compost heap of a more acidic soil, plants tend to be smaller or have fewer, smaller pitchers than those cliff dwelling cousins.
M
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Post by unclemasa on Jul 15, 2008 22:43:42 GMT -10
I still puzzling over "i dont like forms" ?
My first thought was "I don't like forums". Simple enough .... forgot a letter.
Still, strange? If, your posting on a forum then, it would seem like a sort of self-loathing .. or at least a dirty job (?)
Maybe, it is "forms" and you really dislike paperwork? Dislike it enough to assume the name?
Or, I'd like to think, your our first "super species snob" and don't like variable species of Nepenthes but rather prefer only those with a consistent single archetypal form. (?)
Sorry to distract from the thread but, if you don't mind, fillusin on the name. If, you do then, I hope youdonthateyourselfinthemorning.
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Post by idontlikeforms on Jul 16, 2008 7:00:43 GMT -10
The "idontlikeforms" is refering to not liking paper forms as in filling them out. It's an old ID I've used for years on other non-CP related forums. So I just kept it.
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Post by mrflytrap2 on Jul 24, 2008 8:16:43 GMT -10
Rainforest, I've read a few of your posts in regards to coral chips and I'm really tempted to try them out as well. But I'm having a hard time finding where I could get these at here in Central US. Is there a specific product / brand name you are using?
I've seen terms of coral chips show up for aquariums, is this something that might be found in a pet store, such as marine gravel?
Thanks for sharing! Nathan
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Jul 24, 2008 11:10:22 GMT -10
There is no need to use coral, you can use any form of limestone to increase the amount of CA in your soil mixture.
Michael, stale coffee is a fantastic Nepenthes fertilizer. Apparently, the coffee bean has a near perfect ratio of nutrients for optimal plant growth. I use it to water my Nepenthes a few times a year and they have never looked better.
Try it out on some of those "struggling" plants. Takes about six to eight weeks to notice the difference in th growth and health of the plant. Only apply it once, not sure what happens if too much is added and there is no need to water them with coffee more than once or twice a year.
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dicon
Urceolatae
Posts: 32
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Post by dicon on Jul 24, 2008 12:35:27 GMT -10
Hay Dave, Do they take milk and sugar with that !? Back on subject though, Many of us use rainwater or R/O water for our Neps, which contains no calsium..(unless rainwater is collected from a concrete tiled roof. ) Many fertilizers contain no calsium either. The good news is some do so check out the micronutrients in your favorite brand.
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Post by rainforest on Jul 24, 2008 12:52:51 GMT -10
I believe that there is more to coral and limestone than just calcium. Adding bonemeal doesn't seem to do anything. Even adding crushed lime often can help bring your plants down to a halt, or even kill it, yet these large particle chunks works wonders.
Not sure what coffee will do for nepenthes, never tried, but who knows, will experiment on a few. The idea behind the coral is more to sweeten the soil than to alter its pH entirely. This same idea works well on the Eriostemma subtribe in the genus hoya and has made many previously unbloomable hoya species flower like mad from just the addition of the coral chips to the media.
M
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Post by idontlikeforms on Jul 24, 2008 23:13:16 GMT -10
Plants have high calcium demands. Most plants can use calcium in quantities as high or nearly as high as nitrogen, which in mineral form is the mineral they most demand. Calcium is a close second. Unless Neps are unique, their calcium demands should be high. Yet most Nep growers are growing them in calcium poor medium. And like you're saying Dicon, RO, rainwater, and distilled water too don't have the calcium they need. Rainforest, coral is very high in calcium. It is by far the biggest contributer to the mineral content of coral. That being said, coral also has a well balanced mix of other minerals as well. I also suspect that the Neps absorbing this balanced mix of a huge spectrum of other minerals may also be a big factor in the results you're seeing. But at the same time I think the large amounts of calcium alone may be a big contributor, if there is indeed a big deficit of it. Maybe that bonemeal does not dissolve in water as well as the coral does. It could also be that limestone is overkill for pots and cause too great of an imbalance in the spectrum of nutrients and/or raises the PH too high to absorb other important nutrients. Excessive calcium can interfere with absorption of other nutrients. I suspect that coral may very well be a jackpot for plant growth for all kinds of plants, not just Neps. BTW, I recently repotted all my Neps. I put 3 layers in each pot. The top layer is NZ sphagnum, the second is a thin layer of large coral chunks, and the third is perlite. I made sure that with each Nep the bottom of the roots is touching coral. That way they can expand into either sphagnum or coral right away. Also my pots are see through. So I can monitor how much the sphagnum is breaking down, how wet the coral is, and how wet the perlite is. Each pot also has many slits on the bottom and a good number of long side slits. I'm hoping this will aerate them real well and that the spagnum's PH will stay acidic if I water from the top even though coral has a high PH. Mrflytrap2, I bought my coral at a tropical fish store. The ones I bought are average 1/2inch diameter. They are popularly called "Bones." I called around to all my local fish stores to find coral gravel with the largest average diameter. Most coral gravel is a much finer grade. I thought a finer grade may not aerate as well. So I went with the larger one. I have never seen coral chips like Rainforest has in his pictures. I have no idea where to get those nor how much they cost. Mine cost 1.50 per pound. The finer grades were quite a bit cheaper. BTW as a side note, I regularly eat coral gravel. I have what is commonly referred to as "borderline hypoglycemia." My blood sugar dips too low but not low enough that I can be clinically diagnosed. I can testify that a few small handfuls of coral gravel a day keeps my blood suger a lot more regular. I believe it is the large array of trace minerals in it as other things like colloidial trace mineral water has the exact same affect on me. Man, if coral is this good for me it's gotta be good for me Neps too! ;D
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Post by rainforest on Jul 25, 2008 6:56:55 GMT -10
Idontlikeforms, That is an amazing short course on calcium. Thanks for your input! The coral chips are from areas here in Hawai'i from ground excavations.
Other things I have noticed with the use of coral is that the media doesn't break down as rapidly and the mix stays evenly drainable with reduced compaction. I particularly like the fact that it can extend the media especially for larger potted plants where a soil mix rapidly breaks down.
As for nutrients tied up, regular fertilizings can help that.
M
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