How this hobby can be more productive/Hobbyists'

[rainforest]

Insist on buying only seed original species. I cannot stress this enough. If you think it is all about supply and demand. I will say this. Demand more species from seed and supplies will increase. IF BE sells out their seed originals quickly and 100% near sell out, wouldn't you think they would sell/produce more seed originals? Of course they will!

Many more seasoned growers are now discarding (selling, trading, etc.) their tc stock in hopes to obtain seed originals. Its odd that BE is attempting to sell hybrids from seeds when they should be selling species from seeds instead. If they're already selling 100% of their first seed original offerings quickly then they should be in the market to make and sell seed originals exclusively. (Listen up stock holders and buyers) make species seeds, sell more plants, make more money, stock in company worth more. Do not attempt to make hybrids (especially with unknown parents or lack of skilled labor in making the crosses) and sell them as such. Why compete with EP who is already doing an excellent job at this process. Since BE, AW, MT, etc. is a species propagation for survival growing industry, they should be responsible at making more species from seeds instead.

M

[boris]

I guess no one is crazy enough to try to compete with EP's fantastic hybrids but what should one do if he can't find the suiting pollen for his female babe. Cut the flower or try to make an interesting hybrid?

[Robiii]

Or maybe they should kick the pride and work with EP and other nurseries and split the seed produced or find there own compromise for their situation and it's a win all around.

[philgreen]

On the whole I have to agree. Seed grown is far preferable to TC. I no longer buy TC and very rarely purchase cuttings, most of my plants (species and hybrids) are now seed grown. I'm also growing hundreds of seedlings both species and hybrids, which I should be able to start spreading in a year or so.

However, I disagree that BE should not produce hybrids. Yes they should produce species seeds but not exclusively. For me and I assume many in Europe, BE plants are far easier to obtain than those from EP. Also, from what I've seen, EP hybrids tend to be HUGE, which is fine if you can grow Neps outside all year round. But for those of us who can't smaller hybrids are prefered, which is what I find from BE.

So bring on the seed grown revolution - it's comming whether they like it or not, but lets have plenty of competition over hybrid production.

[rainforest]

When a hybrid is made there is a lot of responsibility to be 100% certainty that the parents you use in a hybrid are properly known. The vast majority of most hobbyists will be making hybrids just because they possess just the one or two of a species and still must trade pollen to get even a hybrid result.

It is odd that BE after being "leaders" in promoting species begins to make hybrids (just because EP, et al have carved a niche with their hybrids). If you want to increase sales in species you MUST offer seed grown originals. If you just sell a single clone of a species, who in their right mind would want to buy more than one? BUT if you were selling seed originals, I might buy several to insure that I have at least a pair among them. It's all in the marketing. Why would you buy ten of clone A of something when they're all exactly identical down to the sex! How boring!

To be able to make hybrids, one must know the parentage and also know everything about the hybrids make up. I have a strong intuition that Rob Cantley didn't personally make the cross of sibuyanensis x hamata, but rather one of his staff did. I'm sure he knows what a N. hamata looks like and if pollen did originate from a hamata then he would know it.
I do know that at EP the only person responsible for any crosses is either Geoff or Andrea, there isn't any "staffing" or other reasons, its like a two man operation from pollination to seed sowing to germination, transplanting to sellable seedlings, cuttings, etc. Mistakes are almost impossible.

BE's collection is superb! You've seen them in shows and in photos. What if they were to make some pure species breeding. Like a striped veitchii to another striped veitchii? Wouldn't you purchase a bunch of seedlings IF they were all seed originals? He couldn't produce enough for the demand! Or how about his giant boschiana by the standard boschiana? Now that's sounds great! We'll know that this seed is pure (providing someone does the pollination and walks it through to seed sowing). Now that's an interesting idea. Make pure species seeds, sell seed originals, make more people buy more of each. Now that's a novel idea!

Shake my coffin to wake me up when this day comes!

Sha-pon sha-pon,

Michael

[Robiii]

quote from Rainforest:
BE's collection is superb! You've seen them in shows and in photos. What if they were to make some pure species breeding. Like a striped veitchii to another striped veitchii? Wouldn't you purchase a bunch of seedlings IF they were all seed originals? He couldn't produce enough for the demand! Or how about his giant boschiana by the standard boschiana? Now that's sounds great! We'll know that this seed is pure (providing someone does the pollination and walks it through to seed sowing). Now that's an interesting idea. Make pure species seeds, sell seed originals, make more people buy more of each. Now that's a novel idea!

Well I know that if they would make seed from there veitchii's I would be going crazy to get a good hand full as long with several other species if not the whole kit a kaboodle (all species possible) Until then it's find the seed grown plants where ever you can.

Viva La Revolution de Nepenthes!
Rob

[obregon562]

quote Now that's a novel idea! quote

Good buisness sense in the nep world is a novel idea isnt it!?! Michael has hit the nail on the head with the "seed grown revolution" idea. Companies could and would make much much more and have far more reliable customers. From a strictly buisness sense, the limits are endless for seed grown species! Who would not like a plant only they posses, not Clone A that 1000000 other people have. Who would not buy into the genetic lottery (at, oh, $35 a ticket er plant) in hopes they hit the jackpot. The more they buy the better the better the odds the customer would get an outstanding plants, so many will buy MORE plants which translates to MORE money! thanks for the buisness tip Michael!

And from a conservation point, this is nirvana! Every person who buys, say a seed grown N. clipeata (its hypothetical remember), will have a geneticaly different plant, which means the threat of inbreeding will almost vanish and if the worst does (and probably will) happen, there is a HUGE market for repopulation! So companies AND the wild pop. profit! And then when those seed grown plants start reproducing (say 50 years down the road), those companies can collect seed from the most outstanding plants they profited from! This Seed Revolution could finally get the ball rolling on sustainable seed collecting, species reintroduction, and general wellfare for Nepenthes.

And the HYBRID potential grows exponentialy along with the SPECIES variability!

So indeed, VIVA LA REVOLUTION DE NEPENTHES!

[rainforest]

The idea of buying seed-grown originals starts with the hobbyist. You really need to make it clear that you are ONLY interested in seed grown starts. This keeps the genetic integrity strong, makes future populations of a particular species more viable and allow superior selections to be made.
Imagine if N. hamata were grown from seeds and kept pure. We all are familiar with the giant, redder, more vigorous clones of N. ventricosa, now copy that over to N. hamata. It can happen only if we allow it to. You may not be able to own a N. hamata today, but this species is a popular one and if people grew, flowered and made seedling selections of more vigorous, more appealing clones, we'd all end up with superior plants that are easier to grow and make pitchers.

The important thing to remember is to keep strong at the idea that seed grown is superior over tc propagated. They will tell you that tc clones are selected for superior features, this is an outright LIE! They grow them from seeds and they won't know what they have until its matured. But the only problem is that they will need to see a recovery value after going through this costly process. Whether a tc clone is superior or NOT, they must recoup their expenses and time. So you will buy them at the end.

M