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Post by marka on Jan 1, 2009 9:58:59 GMT -10
Marcello, you did ask so here they are  First is this one:    More recent pic.  Very very small hairs on the leaves, almost undetectable by touch.  Top of root  This one has been neglected somewhat, it's a very easy grower, tolerant of cool temps, tolerant of going dry, has never gone dormant and needs more sun that we have got recently in the UK!! No2. was similar expect completely smooth. Unfortunately no pic at present. No3. 'Giant Tiger' To me these are Mirabilis Hybrids, probably with the 'Chumphon Red' form and thorelli, whatever that is, they have small hairs on the edge of the leaves, and thin leaves. You can see roots coming from the bottom of all the pots, apart from these thai plants, i've only ever seen this on Mirabilis.   No4. Also 'Giant Tiger', same overall physiology but different shaped pitchers. Reminds of gracilis but for no particular reason.  Both together, ![]() farm4.static.flickr.com/3245/3157016284_6e9a4d10ff_o.jpg[/img]All these guys love water, and they don't need to be very warm, ~20-24C, here's a few months growth. They are all standing permanently in water and the roots grow out the bottom of the pots.  No4 - Mirabilis, to me this clone has a lot in common with Viking except for pitcher shape, it looks different to other Thai neps I grow, the leaves are darker and it's more robust, the hairs on the leaf margin are minimal, it shrivels up at the slightest drought, whereas other Thai Mirabilis wilt first then recover when watered, its also harder to root form cutting than a typical Mirabilis. I have not yet looked for a rhizome on it.   It grows roots like crazy!  Most of my plants went into an unplanned dormancy a few weeks ago and are just starting to recover, so i'm relying on old photos. Should get much better ones later in the year. |
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Post by Marcello Catalano on Jan 1, 2009 12:26:16 GMT -10
Oooh, Mark, my bad memory! Is that you?! I think we spoke about that second picture a couple of times already Sorry if I couldn't remember about you immediately! N. 3-4: I think I know what it is. I saw it in many Thai collections online, I saw many of its pitchers and as you say it should be a hybrid between N. mirabilis and N. sp. Phangà (another smilesii twin!). There's a very well known place in Phangà, also seen by Nong (who had spread lots of plants from that location), where these two species grow side by side. They created a lot of confusion, because some of their hybrids were mistakenly considered as N. viking, viking x "thorelii" or as a new species on itself. A mix of plants from that colony (whether sp. phangà, mirabilis x phangà or veeery backcrossed hybrids) was just brought in cultivation and called tiger or giant tiger, as usual. The base of the leaf, not so decurrent as in the smilesii group but not so not-decurrent as in mirabilis, should be a good proof. Plus, I guess the leaves are not so narrow as in the smilesii group and sometimes they have cilia on the sides, at least when the plant is very young. The roots coming out of the pot are another good proof: I just repotted all my tuberous nepenthes and they usually don't have much more apart from the tuber, while all my mirabilis already went out of the pot like yours! N. 5 (that you called n. 4 by mistake I suppose): sorry, that's a plain mirabilis. N. 1: I'm not sure. But I really think it's N. sp. surat. The pitchers are different from the billions of smilesii I saw. If you have very small hair on the leaves (make sure they are not "painted" like in many of these species, make sure they are real!) we can rule out N. kampotiana. The leaves of kongkandana are much more "spatulate" and then narrowing abruptly towards the tip. I don't know much about N. sp. surat and sp. phanga, they might even be the same species, and your plant could be any of the two (I exclude a hybrid). But recently I received some dry leaves of sp. surat (of course sold everywhere as N. tiger). A part from the hair (present in the photos of the live plant and absent in the dry leaves!) I had a few problems to flat the leaves inside a book to let them dry. I realized that it was due to the tip of the leaf, that curves downwards in what seems to be a very typical way. What at first was a problem became a feature that I could use to describe this plant! It seems to me that the plant in the first picture does the same. Thai growers usually sell it as "tiger FROM SURAT" anyway, so it might be easy to contact the seller and ask, he'll probably confirm... n. 2: if it was completely smooth, it might be N. kampotiana. Mate, it's a shame that these healthy plants look neglected. Do like me, buy a sodium lamp to give a lot of heat and plenty of light. You will have an area of two meters to grow your plants, the lamp being one or on and a half meter from the leaves. You don't need any terrarium, believe me, just let your plants to adapt slowly, down to 40-50 percent humidity. Of course, only if they are all indochinese. I wouldn't do that with the other species. Actually I did it in the past, but they never grew up as good as in the 70 percent humidity. Marcello |
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Post by marka on Jan 1, 2009 13:29:50 GMT -10
Thanks Marcello, Yes, the second picture is an old one, we did speak but you seemed a bit reluctant to suggest an ID  . I suspected that the mirabilis is a mirabilis, but its good to know its that rather than a hybrid, its been growing in a big tub mixed with my other thai mirabilli for the last year or two. I think I will take a look at its roots one day all the same as it behaves slightly differently to the other ones and i'm curious, do any thai mirabilli have rhizomes. Is Viking an extreme form of this strain of Mirabilis? The one you think might be Sp Surat and the the one I don't unfortunately have a photo of were the two I was most keen to ID, so thanks for the tentative ID and some of the points to look for. No need to worry about the fishtank ;D, they outgrew that in a few months sometime last year, this year will probably go in a conservatory were they can get some well needed summer sun. I presume Surat refer's to Surat Thani? I have a red amp from near there too. |
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Post by Marcello Catalano on Jan 1, 2009 14:48:03 GMT -10
Well, I'm still a bit reluctant, we know nothing about those plants from Surat and Phangà, and just from one pitcher a proper ID is impossible, considering how these species all look the same...Make sure about the hair! if you're not sure about the hair on the leaf, check the stem, where the hair should be more visible. I do think that viking is a variety of mirabilis, but there are different opinions around I've never heard of any ampullaria coming from Surat (Suratthani), that species in Thailand is incredibly rare, like N. gracilis. So far we (herbarium and Thai people sightings) only have amps from Songhkla and Narathiwat, quite far from Surat. I wouldn't be too sure about the location given to you for that plant. I read on another post from you that you also have an ampullaria from Kao Lak, that is on the opposite side of the peninsula respect to Surat. You said that this population was destroyed. I would be very interested to know the source of these info, if they are affordable or not, as they might be accurate and very precious, revealing a previously unknown and possibly larger area for this species! Marcello |
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Post by sockhom on Jan 1, 2009 22:52:16 GMT -10
Do like me, buy a sodium lamp to give a lot of heat and plenty of light. You will have an area of two meters to grow your plants, the lamp being one or on and a half meter from the leaves. You don't need any terrarium, believe me, just let your plants to adapt slowly, down to 40-50 percent humidity. Of course, only if they are all indochinese. I wouldn't do that with the other species. Actually I did it in the past, but they never grew up as good as in the 70 percent humidity. Marcello Come on Cello, Show us some new pics! I'm craving for it! ;D François. |
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Post by marka on Jan 2, 2009 0:54:53 GMT -10
Marcello,
The actual location was Khao Lak, Phang Nga. Think I had my sleepy head on last night, your right the Surat border is 25km to the east. The story went that they were found on the hillside, and that it had been turned into holiday homes. The nursery could have just made it up, a lot of all red ampullarias in thai nurseries seem to have their origins at BE these days! Next time were are in thailand i'll see if I can get more info.
PS Pictures of your growing area would be great ;D
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Post by Marcello Catalano on Jan 2, 2009 2:35:09 GMT -10
Oh, good to know, it seems like a true story, even if it's true that most thai red amps come from BE. Can you privately send me the name of the seller to rafflesiana@yahoo.com? I might try to pay him a visit in august, during my next trip down there. Kao Lak is famous for being covered with pitcher plants, but I thought they were just mirabilis. The area would be good for mirabilis, ampullaria and even sp. phangà. Guys, all my plants have been cut to ground level and the cuttings sold on the cpuk forum (indochinese plants with a precise location for everybody! wow!). Plus, here it's winter and these plants are very seasonal, as soon as the temperature goes down to 25 C they start loosing all the pitchers! You'll have to wait next summer, but a picture of my set-up from last summer can be found at the bottom of this page: www.lhnn.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=ht&action=display&thread=1727&page=1Marcello |
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Post by sulud1 on Jan 2, 2009 11:50:19 GMT -10
Hi, This plant that I posted under N. kongkandana is not. I did find my notes and it is the one from Surat Thanni near Kanchanadit but no way is it N. anamensis as listed on Cheek's review. The tendrils on this one are round not concave ane the lid and glands are distinctly different. Hopefully when it puts on upper traps they will show something unique.  truly, tom |
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Post by Marcello Catalano on Jan 2, 2009 12:36:15 GMT -10
Great Tom! yes, that's the one! I went to Kanchanadit twice, but no way to find it! Don't tell me that you did!!!! I know it was listed among the anamensis specimens in Cheek's review, and I agree it is not anamensis at all! Different area, different altitude, different habitat! Plants keep coming in cultivation from Surat, but no way to find them in the wild! Any help?
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Post by sulud1 on Jan 6, 2009 11:40:02 GMT -10
Hi, I took a closer look at this plant with my new 20x loupe. It has a mid vein with at least three pairs of veins on either side on top of the lid. Compared to N. smilesii that has two vein ridges on the top of the lid. Also the hairs on the edge of the leaf are brown and stick out more than the white pubescent which mat and curl on N. smilesii. I'll keep looking for more details and try and photograph them later.  N. sp. from Surat thani Truly, Tom |
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