DEBATE TOPIC I: Why orchids and not Nepenthes?

[leilani]

Tropical orchids and Nepenthes were both introduced to western culture at about the same time. Both were hot items in the public eye and received much admiration in the Victorian era. The world changed with WWI and, for a while, both orchid and Nepenthes horticulture were put on the back burner.

After the war orchid cultivation made a comeback and has continued to grow into the huge industry we know today. Nepenthes horticulture, on the other hand, inspired interest in both Japan and America for a while but, somehow, never really made a big impact in the market.

Why is this? What happened the opened the door for orchids but closed it for Nepenthes?

My position, for the purposes of this thread, is that it was their own carnivorous nature that, ironically, lead to the decline of Nepenthes as a viable tropical exotic in the marketplace.

"What?" you say.

Here is why. When Nepenthes arrived in Europe they were treated with respect. They were showcased in the finest botanical exhibits next to other tropical beauties like vireya and orchids. Their carnivorous nature was an added bit of wonderment but not necessarily their primary point of interest. At some point, it would be interesting to try to pinpoint exactly when, Nepenthes came to be associated less with the beautiful tropicals they were known to grow among and, instead, grouped, grown and sold alongside of other know carnivorous plants. Nepenthes were no longer treated with the same respect as orchids but, instead, were shuffled off into the curio market of the flytraps, sundews, blatterworts and other odd plants even though there was little beyond their carnivorous nature to bring them together.

It was this association of Nepenthes with bog carnivores that, for many decades and even today, is largely responsible for the failure of Nepenthes in the bigger marketplace. It was this association, based solely on their shared carnivorous nature, that took Nepenthes from the center stage in the greenhouse and placed them in the aquarium store and curiosity shop. It was this association of carnivorous bog plants and Nepenthes that lead to the mythology of the temperamental, finicky and difficult to grow Nepenthes. It is this association that, even today, helps keep Nepenthes horticulture from being taken seriously. The "Nepenthes Society" has been lost to the "Carnivorous Plant Society", the "Nepenthes Exhibit" to the "CP Exhibit" and the greatest of all carnivorous plants has become but an odd and difficult-to-grow cousin of the, made by the millions, money-spinner flycraps.

The truth is that Nepenthes never really fit well with the curio market model of flytraps and bog plants. After all, they are very different plants and have different horticultural requirements and regiments. Flytraps and the like are small, can be grown in very limited space and adapt well to confinement. Nepenthes, on the other hand, are large tropical vines and, with all due respect to those growing some very nice specimens in confinement, only realize their full potential in a larger environment. With decades of being associated with the aquarium, terrarium markets, with flytraps and bog plants, is it any wonder that Nepenthes came to be know as finicky and difficult to grow? Even today, many newcomers buy a flytrap and a Nepenthes, take them home and stick them in an aquarium and struggle to grow them together while retailers are just happy for the sale.

This is one of the reasons that I only grow Nepenthes. It is not that I don't like or am not fascinated by other plants that have developed a carnivorous nature but rather that I see this association of Nepenthes with flytraps and the like as detrimental to the advancement of Nepenthes horticulture. Nepenthes deserve much more than to simply spin extra money in the kids flytrap, ant-farm and Disney style "Natures curiosities" market. Nepenthes must return to center stage in the great Botanical Gardens of the world and take their place back among the orchids, ferns and vireya.

[peterhewitt]

As a somewhat new commercial grower i can tell you my experience with retail plant stores. Unfortunately Orchids are often sold in stores or markets, that also sell fresh produce. Retailers are afraid that the plants will smell bad or general hygiene could be compromised if there are dead insects in the pitchers.
This is just from my experience trying to introduce Nepenthes to markets that already sell Orchids to chain stores. None of the carnivorous plants are welcome in stores that are awash with Orchids.
Personally i feel these things can be overcome, and i am still a trying to introduce Nepenthes to my South African Market with great success, just not with the chain stores that also sell fresh produce.
As far as i can tell, the general public is not even aware of where these plants come from. it seems to me, that they are relegated in retail, simply because it is difficult to guarantee you are selling them a plant free of insect pathogens.

[boris]

I think the most important point is how easy the plants are to handle. At least here in germany where you can keep those plants only indoors.
Meanwhile you get here orchids in every supermarket for just 6 Euro. But the orchids you get are mostly dendrobium hybrids which survive easily on the windowsill and watering with tap water. When they stop flowering they often end in the compost. They are even cheaper than a bouquet and with this the people are also used to throw it away at some certain point when it doesn't look good anymore.
Orchidfans who are growing species and/or fragile hybrids are much more rare than this massmarket. There are some more out here than Nepenthesgrowers but the discrepancy isn't such high than this massmarket orchidgrowers.
Btw ... the biggest secret for me is that vireyas are nearly unknown in europe. You'll find in every second garden hardy rhodos but vireyas are nearly unknown here. I think there is just one shop in England for Europe where you can order vireyas. Maybe it is the size which the plants will get. But thinking of the thousands of Monsteras offered in gardencenter this doesn't seem to be the reason. So the point might be again that you shouldn't water them with tapwater.
Just make a nepentheshybrid which is able to grow on a normal windowsill. It has to take tapwater, grow even in shade, has to survive every humidity, should put out for every leaf very colourfull pitchers and should be very cheap. Et voila Nepenthes will make their way to the massmarket.

[peterhewitt]

Depending on where you live off course, I think there are many Nepenthes that already have these quality's. With the same disclaimer, most can be watered with tap water as well.

[Dave Evans]

Because, for years and years, nobody would grow neps from seed! Also, the flowers are rather plain, most Orchid grower are looking forward to the flowers, not the leaves.

Orchid cultivation was perfected a long time ago. We are just getting there with Nepenthes.

Also, many Orchid growers used to feel CP are childish plants, while orchids are for serious adults. I kid you not.

Also, I'm just becoming aware, some folks into creation theory do not like carnivorous plants because it was 'that evil witch doctor', Darwin, that figured out they were carnivorous.

[nolpenthes]

Really good history lesson all, this post has been a good read thanks for all the background ;D

[boris]

Oct 7, 2010 8:20:51 GMT -10 Dave Evans said:

Also, I'm just becoming aware, some folks into creation theory do not like carnivorous plants because it was 'that evil witch doctor', Darwin, that figured out they were carnivorous.

my oh my ... that's quite an evil story. Are you aware that this witch doctor Darwin made one of his biggest points with Angraecum sesquipedale. Read here if you didn't knew:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angraecum_sesquipedale
Even Sam grows this historic orchid

[vividrays84]

Hmm I think there's more of a market for "pretty flowers" than what most think are grotesque looking plants. Nepenthes definitely aren't for everyone as "pretty orchids" are more likable and pleasing to the eye. And let's face it I know many people (general public) who buy nepenthes, place them I'm their house, then they die or stop pitchering. Im sure when ordering people are looking to put flowers for sale in the store not weird collectors plants. Flowers appeal to the general public more i think. Nepenthes def need some attention and extra care when grown indoors. I see nepenthes as rare exotic treasures. I believe most botanical gardens ive been to do have a collection of nepenthes by their ferns and orchids?? I like how they are a very particular hobby and so on. Everyone I show my plants too is like what is that!!! Lol I believe nepenthes do have their spot light in the horticultural world, but for the true horticulturist and botanist, not the "everyday plant person". We all know as growers, where nepenthes Stand amongst other great plants.

[rainforest]

The forefathers of orchids were a different kind of breed of growers than those of the nepenthes cultivators. Nepenthes growers are somewhat like that magical potion kind of salesmen selling something other than the reason for growing plants.
This illusion, recall flipping pages of Exotica in black and white, drooling of those man-eaters (which they were never), which sizzles (fizzles) out as we actually grow them in person.
If we grew these for what they are (plants with hanging bladders which occasionally eat bugs) and admire them for their color (as orchid growers do with their flowers), we'd be in a different kind of mentality than trying to compete with the Venus Fly Traps, Sundews, etc., which are truly carnivorous plants. This is why you have those seriously devoted CP'ers who really just grow VFT's, sundews, butterworts, cephalotus, etc., and less often grow Nepenthes, or vice verse.

Also for decades, most of our forefront growers sold nepenthes as a difficult to grow, hard to propagate, very rare exclusive product. This is the same reason why the elusive Pahpiopedilum rothschildiana, Phragmipediums , etc. were so pricey and very very few growers grew them.
Articles, books, all literature made nepenthes growing somewhat of a mystery or proposed poor knowledge of actual growing techniques that for most people who attempted to grow them, failed miserably thus scaring off potential nepenthes-nuts from establishing.
Modern orchid culture nowadays tell how easy it is to grow "orchids as houseplants", "orchid growing for dummies", etc. thus making them more people-friendly than nepenthes. This hobby with growers abroad has changed the look of orchids and now with so many breeders/growers in Thailand, and abroad that helped bring these prices down and made them within reach and affordable, now more people are growing them and they're not too limited or difficult to obtain. Of course the current status quo with regards to nepenthes will prevent this from happening with inflated artificial prices and cat and mouse of demand and supply. The goal of having more people grow these and make them desirable to obtain cannot happen in a group of growers selling tc plants at very high prices.
The outlook for affordable inexpensive plants will open doors for higher priced collectors stuff at ten times the quantity than just the one or two die hards. This is why the nepenthes breeders and growers have not gained this status as with orchids. Buy a compot of paphs, phals, dendros, grow them out, raise them and sell them. Instead nepenthes are $25 per tc plantlet for a desirable plant, grow them out and make a little profit even at doubling your money, you're not really making much with all the other costs involved. Most of the bulk nepenthes of tc (not from Nepenthes collectors/growers) sell flats of inexpensive tc starts (i.e. N. ventricosa, N Miranda, N. Gentle, etc.) that have been seen/sold in large department store kinds of nurseries where they compete with orchids, annuals and veggie starters. When was the last time you saw a tc nepenthes (other than those mentioned above) in a hanging basket selling fr the same price as a bromeliad or an anthurium on a rock? We need to get real. Yeah, there's MacDonalds and of course some high end restaurant. But look how many small-fry MacDonalds there are and everyone making so much money, and they can give away a million dollars prize for buying a BigMac! Any way, we need to see more MacDonalds in the nepenthes biz and then peiple can make money selling them!
We need to treat nepenthes as we do orchids, not some exotic plant from Mars!

M

[leilani]

peterhewitt ...

I had not given much consideration to selling Nepenthes next to fresh produce. I don’t have any concerns about eating in my nursery but I can certainly understand that a health inspector could have a problem with this combination. I suppose, if there were demand, that Nepenthes could be grown in the ultra-clean greenhouses that some orchids enjoy and be certified accordingly.

boris ...

But the orchids you get are mostly dendrobium hybrids which survive easily on the windowsill and watering with tap water. When they stop flowering they often end in the compost. They are even cheaper than a bouquet and with this the people are also used to throw it away at some certain point when it doesn't look good anymore.

I’m glad you mentioned this ...... “the disposable orchid”.

This is the way of very big industry and it is something to be considered carefully if you are a Nepenthes lover. It is not as if this model has not been tried before. A few of very large agri-businesses have attempted to introduce Nepenthes into the mass market with, as far as I can tell, limited success.

Dave Evans...

Also, many Orchid growers used to feel CP are childish plants, while orchids are for serious adults. I kid you not.

The stigma of having been marketed as exotic novelties and sold along side of snakes, spiders, and sleeping-grass. One of the few success stories as regards cp marketing is targeting kids. Now, for kids the flytrap cannot be beat. Sure the Nepenthes is weird but it does not spring shut. So, poor Nepenthes hangs around the kids in the pet store like some kind of old weird unwanted relative. With all the childish stuff that has accompanied this kid based marketing, e.g., stuffed plant-animals, cute T-shirts and the like, and a public awareness campaign that always consists solely of taking flytraps to the local elementary school is it any wonder that the orchid grower might feel this way?

vividrays84 ...

I think there's more of a market for "pretty flowers" than what most think are grotesque looking plants. Nepenthes definitely aren't for everyone as "pretty orchids" are more likable and pleasing to the eye.

I would not expect Nepenthes to replace flowers. On the other hand, I would not rule out the possibility of producing a whole line of very flowery, easy to care for, Nepenthes.

I see nepenthes as rare exotic treasures.

rainforest ....

If we grew these for what they are (plants with hanging bladders which occasionally eat bugs) and admire them for their color (as orchid growers do with their flowers), we'd be in a different kind of mentality...

;D
____________________________________

I think many of us see Nepenthes in the way vividrays84 does; “... as rare exotic treasures’. If, this is the way you see them and what makes you love them then, you might not really want to see them succeed in the mass market. Do you really want the McPenthes? I recall an old commie philosopher that would rail against the “repressive desublimation of art” in modern culture. The point was something like this: If, everybody can have a perfect copy of Michaelangello’s David in their living room then, that very fact desublimates (lessens in stature) that work of art. How will you feel about your edwardsiana when they are as common as ventrata? The same?

Philosophical BS aside, we already have the bulletprooff Nepenthes in N. ventrata and several organizations have made attempts to bring other Nepenthes into the larger markets but, as far as I can tell, these efforts have not produced great profit margins and I don’t see efforts expanding beyond the few species and hybrids already in production. (More recently, EP has made some moves in this direction with their “Pot Plant” series.)

We all know what big business wants ..... a widget, a money spinner. I have been approached a couple of times by agri-bus types whose approach was plain and simple: “Pick a pretty, preferably red one, clone it, make a million of them and put it in every box store in the country. Forget the rest.” McDonalds is not really know for their extensive menu or quality of dining.

I would like to see Nepenthes horticulture find some middle ground. I would definitely like to see it move away from curiosity marketing that has been the hallmark of cp production for too long. On the other hand, I’d hate to see the diversity of Nepenthes lost due to the great success of a couple of bullet-proff beauties.

I think there is a place for Nepenthes, in all its diversity, in the larger agri-business markets and I think I know why some previous efforts to move them there have meet failure or only marginal success. I have always had great faith that, assuming a product with good presentation values, education and a salesman that knows his job, Nepenthes are easy to move. After all, whether you consider them beautiful or grotesque, they absolutely capture the imagination.

[rainforest]

Of all the markets that have grown nepenthes for mass sales, I believe Thailand is doing a commendable job. They have grown so many genera making them accessible (accessible is the keyword here, not mass marketing) that each has taken off and drawn it's own groupie (if you wish) kind of collectors. They have excelled with adeniums, orchids of all kinds, ferns, aroids, cacti, succulents, so many genera that you cannot even begin to show for.
Many of their plants are not the massed produced tc explants but rather the unique individual plants from which variation and selections are made from (a lesson many of our distributors who specializes just in carbon copies could adopt).
The way many of our plants today are grown have all been modeled by how the Thai's do it. Their keen sense of culture also dealing with their climate issues have produced results rather than obstacles as we other collectors experience. They have modified their pots, potting medias, way of cultivation and even fertilization to produce results seen so rarely in other areas.
The way they have grown and marketed their N. sp. Viking and allies are remarkable. After wild collected specimens were sold, many seed grown superior clones filled the markets now that wild forms are inferior to these.
It won't be too long before you see something like a Viking x rajah or maybe rafflesiana x edwardsiana or what ever will come along and sooner than later you will own one. Unlike other distributors who speak of the "day" when they will have enough to sell to everyone. Even species will some day be more accessible most likely through these channels over a tc lab with slow and poor results in the process.
The growing of orchids also has appealing favortism among women just as equally to men. While nepenthes is favored mostly by the men in the plant world. This has something to do with their demand and mass sales.

M

[morbus]

Truly, i would very much like to see Nepenthes in Garden stores here, but i dont see it happening . . .Sadly
Ive spoken to "big" nurseries here and they just dont know what they are. It will take a long time for nepenthes to gain the "rank" of orchids.

I just got back from a trip to victoria falls, and went to check my greenhouse (its now 12:24am here) I spent quite some time in there just looking at pitchers -new and old. looking at new leaves and flowers and basals and . . . .- so, my point is - "I see nepenthes as rare exotic treasures".

McDonalds nepenthes is probably the way to go to make nepenthes popular. then continue to have the "steak house" for those who want real food .

based on speaking to people, most people are afraid to keep a nepenthes because they think it will just curl up and die. they find them interesting, and want them . . . .if they can keep them alive. whereas with orchids, people are more comfortable tossing them when the flowers drop. so the reasons for buying the two plants seem different - orchids are bought for a display, but people are afraid of nepenthes because they "will" die.

in short
McDonalds Nepenthes - buy it for the moment, to look nice now and be prepared to replace it next month. I dont know if i want nepenthes to be like that . . . .i like them being valued as plants not just ornaments - even if just by a handful of us.

and - im not saying orchid grower arent serious growers, im saying that many times they are purchased by the "mass public" as "display items" rather than plants.

[shawnintland]

Hi Michael and all! It's been an interesting thread thus far. I hope I don't take it off-topic too far...

I agree with a lot of your comments regarding Thai hybridizing and the results of such efforts over here. The reasoning behind it however (particularly with Neps) is more due to the limited-in-scope original collections most growers have/had to work with from the beginning. People here (again generalizing) don't have access to HL conditions or gro-chambers in which to maintain them. The prices for TC clones of more interesting species have been prohibitive to the vast majority of people here (I hear this complaint frequently from Malays and Indonesians as well). So we have been forced to 'work with what we have'. A lot of high-tech, of all sorts not just TC, has also not been readily available and seed-growing is so accessible to anyone that the Thais and their love of gardening have just jumped right in at it with what 'is' available. The advent of the internet has made it easy for many of us to find each other (though the majority only communicate via Thai language forums) and the result is lots of collaboration between different growers and the rapid spread of interesting plants and knowledge of interesting crosses. You're right, already some growers here have LL/HL crosses going that will finally allow more of us to share in the HL wonders that the rest of you guys have had available to enjoy for a long time now. Thanks all for the inspiration you have provided us!

Again, due to our LL conditions making it possible, many of us grow lots of seed-grown plants, either outdoors or in shade houses and can grow what seem to other growers elsewhere to be HUGE numbers of plants (Unless you are Sam!). Ever-needing to solve space problems, even with loads of it available, I've been busy finding school science programs to donate the thousands of 'spare' young plants to as I don't care to get involved in 'sales'. 'Cello's and Francois's great works the last years will make a big difference in helping us to identify what we have been, and will be, working with...a huge step forward!

You are right...keep an eye out for what's coming out of Thailand in the near future!

PS I'll do a separate post elsewhere of some of the various "Viking" pitchers I shot yesterday to emphasize the truth of what your comments said in that regard. Hope I wasn't too o.t.!

[peterhewitt]

I think possibly 70% or more of Phalaenopsis Orchids sold here, end up as compost, and they are not cheap.
I would hate to see Nepenthes going this way.
In this Market, Nepenthes are scarce, but i think this is only because no one here has taken the time and considerable effort it takes to launch the product nationwide. Not to speak of cost.
I am in the throws of just such an undertaking, and i think that Nepenthes can be popularized to a certain degree, as successfully as Orchids. But there has to be an abundance of sale material and variation.

[rainforest]

Shawn,
Being a wide scope grower, I always watch what the Thai's are doing to see how the market develops. I am not worried about having them grow more HL material. Many hybrids of HL/LL do quite well in LL conditions. perhaps they have not found the right cultivation methods to accomplish this. Yet their way of growing native/indigenous species has exceeded anyone's affliction for perfection. Everyone is saying, "I wish I could own a Viking hanging basket with twenty pitchers simultaneously." This breeding of a common ancestor Viking to complex HL/LL hybrids could yield some very interesting hybrids that do not compare with the standards set forth by EP and to a lesser degree BE. But more so a "new" line of nepenthes with multiple pitchers, LL tolerance (please note that LL conditions are preferable over HL cultivation since the majority of mass grown plants will be for people growing somewhat indoors and indoors with higher temperatures than lower) and then HL coloring-shapes. Many of the original Victorian hybrids that we still see around today are exclusively LL or warm growers. I believe the "warm" growers will be the hybrids around much longer than so many if the HL cooler hybrids. So directions for breeding should definitely be centered around growing plants warm. And no better model for growing these warm growers than in Thailand! Everyone said that Thailand would be too wet to grow adeniums/desert rose, and who ever said this has never seen the vast colors and forms and even fragrance that Thailand offers (of course Taiwan has their great hand in making many unique hybrids) we must remember no adeniums are indigenous to Thailand, yet they grow there like it was home.
It will be only a matter of time before Thailand will start producing highly desirable (they already are) hybrids that the rest of the world catches up and adopt.
Nepenthes being as adaptable and really easy to grow will soon be a bigger part of the orchid's shared limelight. We need to begin this in our literature (nobody wants to grow plants that are billed difficult or impossible), we need to show the facts about growing these root-hungry plants so that everyone can achieve results we now see in orchids.
I have to disagree about orchids being grown and tossed. Many of the orchid growers that do spend money on orchids do it with the notion that their collection will be enhanced with beautiful flowering orchids at all times.
Nepenthes has the great advantage of having pitchers (in place of colorful flowers) that have an appeal to other like-minded (and even non-plant enthusiasts ) that all are in wonder that such a plant exists. No orchid can share this "mysticism" that pitcher plants have.

Pick up any orchid book or general plant growing guide and most will say that orchids are easy to grow.
Now pick up any publication or book about nepenthes culture and all will say that nepenthes are difficult, for advanced growers, slow, etc.
Being a beginning plant novelty grower (after advancing from green houseplants) which one would you start with first?

I see with nepenthes that we can capture their appreciation for nepenthes from seedling to adults.
Compare: seedling orchid in a 3 inch pot vs seedling nepenthes in a 3 inch pot. Nepenthes will have pitchers on already at this age. Orchids just green leaves.
Growing these to the next pot size because they are growing in your care. Orchids most likely still just green leaves. Nepenthes probably developing multiple pitchers and or growth points all with developing pitchers getting bigger with each new leaf, orchids nada.
Now a large matured plant, the orchid begins to flower,meanwhile the nepenthe s might possibly be in a hanging basket with multiple pitchers all the time. About a month after the orchid flower opens and dies, we end up with a green plant again. The nepenthes more pitchers, maybe some uppers developing now.
Which plant seems more appealing? Yet the orchid leads the way in popularity.
We see all sorts of Youtube videos and publications in magazines, etc. about these fascinating plants, so we do get the exposure. But when interested parties start researching how to grow them, they get turned off and move on, unless they're lucky to see someone's collection and see how these fascinating plants grow LIVE.
PLEASE someone who has grown nepenthes PLEASE write a real book on culture. Because the rest of the literature out there stinks like (insert brown word here)!
This will be the opening of the floodgates for people seeking growers out.

M