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Post by dvg on Apr 8, 2010 9:00:28 GMT -10
Okay, is N. veitchii one of the parents involved here?
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Post by dvg on Apr 8, 2010 8:48:24 GMT -10
Hmmm...interesting game.
So what do we know so far? Not too much really, except that three species are involved and that the female is a species and the male is a primary hybrid, so f(sp) * m(primary hybrid).
Because of the way the first few guesses were made we don't even know what any of the potential parents are. We don't even know if N. veitchii or N. northiana are even one of the potential species involved. Leilani just had to say 'no' to any of the incorrect 'complex hybrid' guesses being made. And thus very little useful information was actually revealed.
It might be best to tackle this problem by first finding out the three species involved and then determining which of the three species is the female. After that it is about a fifty/fifty chance of finding the male and solving the problem.
So with my first guess...is N. truncata involved as one of the parents of the three species involved in this mix here?
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Post by dvg on Apr 8, 2010 3:33:25 GMT -10
Happy Birthday to the fLORA nepenthaceae forum! Best wishes today, and I really hope there is a wild party being thrown somewhere in honor of this wonderful Nepenthes forum. Wow! Already two years old and growing up fast. Here's hoping that this third year of life offers up the same and more in terms of membership growth, info sharing and of course the great pics that you people grace this forum with. ;D regards, Doug dvg
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Post by dvg on Apr 4, 2010 19:59:46 GMT -10
Hi Kain,
Because Leilani and Rainforest are growing their larger established Neps outside, and at times getting good amounts of rainfall running through their plant pots, their pots in turn are getting flushed out to a much better degree than the average indoor grower's plant pots would be.
As an indoor grower with smaller plants and artificial lights and obviously no rainfall, I would tend to veer more to the side of caution when starting out with any fertilizer mix. It's safer to start with 1/8 recommended strength and work up in concentration strength from there, once it is determined how the plants are adjusting to the new fertilizer.
Maybe best not to be in too big of a rush with upping the concentration strength either, until you feel fairly confident that with your growing conditions, a stronger concentratrion would not be detrimental to your plants.
Better to approach a new fetilization progaram with caution in the beginning, than having to deal with bigger, potentially irreparable problems later on.
dvg
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Post by dvg on Apr 1, 2010 4:11:19 GMT -10
Thanks for the advice Sam. The tide is turning for me with regards to using a more soil based fertilizing regiment. I'm going to look for another seaweed based fertilizer with a stronger N-P-K formula. It's one thing to be stubborn in one's view's, it's quite another thing to be foolish...and I know that today isn't that day to be too foolish. ;D regards. Doug dvg
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Post by dvg on Mar 31, 2010 10:58:11 GMT -10
Hi Doug, I think earthworms are also active in borneo. I saw a while ago some very cool pics of great looking blue earthworms in habitate. So they are also active there. So I guess it might be a more natural way to give the plants needed nutrients instead of osmocote. I'll do some tests in the next weeks and months on some of my plants and will keep you updated. Thanks Boris, Looking forward to your results. Doug dvg
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Post by dvg on Mar 31, 2010 10:38:33 GMT -10
Yes I also already thought to try earthworm castings because it releases the nutrients very controlled. Hehe that will be my next attack on the ventrata. I think there is no problem to fertilize additional with seaweed. The microorganism of the earthworm castings will bring the nutrients of the seaweed in a managable form for the plants to take but it might be more effective. So I guess you've to reduce the strength. Btw ... most discussions I've read about fertilizing neps were in my eyes quite useless because no one mentioned the conductivity of the used water. Without knowing how much salts are dissolved it's nothing more than blind flying. Hi Boris, I'm interested in a more natural approach to growing my Nepenthes. And these beneficial soil organisms found in earthworm castings are something I would like to experiment with more also. Please keep us updated on any progress you have with using this material on your Neps. Do you think this will give similar results to what you had with your EM experiments? regards, Doug dvg
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Post by dvg on Mar 31, 2010 10:32:15 GMT -10
Hi Boris, I had a look at your link and i must say that your results were most impressive! Even with my coffee treatments, I haven't had results like that, that quickly. But coffee was my first try at fertilizing Nepenthes, so with new knowledge we move, onward and upward hopefully... ;D Thanks for sharing that info. I'm definitely going to be doing some more reading on this topic. regards, Doug dvg
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Post by dvg on Mar 31, 2010 9:33:19 GMT -10
Rainforest,
Because of your endorsement of Seaweed fertilizers, I'm thinking of trying a trial of this type of fertilizer against a coffee treatment.
I have some B. Seaweed, a 'natural organic' product produced by Technaflora Plant Products LTD. This is pure liquified B.C. Kelp, sourced from Macrocystis Kelp. The N-P-K is listed as 0.1-0.5-1.0 repectively.
For Nepenthes to try this on, I have 2 small northiana with pitchers, both of them growing in the same pot, 2 Wistuba clipeata 'Clone 3', both plants growing in the same pot together, and 2 Wistuba N. ventricosa plants, each one about seven or eight inches in diameter. I believe each of these set of plants are the same clone, and each are about the same size as their respective twin.
I would want to unpot and repot each of these plants prior to doing any kind of testing.
The B. Seaweed, for soil feeding, is recommended to be used at 5-10ml/quart of water, once every two to three weeks. Does that sound about right to you? I might even go to about 1/8 or 1/4 recommended strength to begin with.
Also, would you recommend Superthrive be used at all, or should that be a separate trial, altogether?
If I can find some time this weekend, I could get started on these trials as soon as then.
regards,
dvg
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Post by dvg on Mar 30, 2010 14:34:07 GMT -10
One of the interesting points I have seen is that many growers are willing to give their plants coffee but reluctant to use real fertilizer on them. I somehow believe if they did fertilize and saw results on their plants, they may be reluctant to use coffee and vice verse for those who use coffee and never plant ferts. A test (contest in a way) should be the best to judge to see how each responds and what are the results. DVG, I would not use test villosas and macros, but since you have already done so, your results are promising. One question enters my mind: Have you ever used soluble plant fertilizers? I am also wondering if coffee works the same way as a product called "Superthrive" works on pants. Like a hormone rather than a nutrient. It is known that coconut embryo water also stimulates plant growth in the lab for plants in vitro. Perhaps the coffee works in a similar way. More so like a root or growth stimulator and not really a plant food source. In these tests we should also combine the effects of a fertilizer AND coffee to see if the results are even better over coffee and fertilizer alone. There are many possibilities of testing this and the endorsement or abstinence of using coffee may also be determined from test results. M Hi Rainforest, In answer to your question, no I haven't yet used soluble plant fertilizers on any of my Nepenthes. In fact, I was reluctant to initially even use coffee as a fertilizer for them. Using coffee as a growth stimulator was my first foray into Nep fertilizing. But I am not opposed to using soluble plant fertilizers on them either. Nor am I totally invested in coffee as being the perfect Nep food. Now that I see that soluble plant ferts can be quite effective for speeding up Nep growth, I will be more willing to experiment with that in the future. I would also like to experiment with letting the naturally occurring microfauna and beneficial soil organisms do their work at breaking down organic material in the potting mix, and thus releasing N-P-K to plant roots at a more gradual rate. This slower release of N-P-K could result in the potting mixes not breaking down so quickly, and the consequential need for repotting. Without having to repot so often, plants could grow on unhindered by any transplant shock or readjustment phase that can happen after a repot. It sounds like you are interested in doing/seeing some tests with the various fertilizing options. This is not only exciting, but could turn out to be quite informative as well. I would also like to see some testing with [ferts vs coffee] vs [coffee and ferts] vs a control.... As well as other possible combinations that arise. I'd also like to see how an organic set-up would work. For the organic set-up, the same potting mix could be used, but a cup of earthworm castings and a cup of leaf mold would be added in as well. And this pot would be fed about once a month with black strap molasses, dissolved in water. The molasses itself has a lot of trace minerals and the complex sugars in it would also feed the soil organisms so that they could better do their work at breaking down and releasing soluble N-P-K from the organic materials in the mix. It would be better if the testing was done with the same type plants and clones would even be better. Are you interested in doing some of the testing? It is testing like this, that helps to propel this hobby forward. Let me know what you think. If we do some tests, maybe we can learn something new. And i have a couple of questions; how often on average do you find you have to repot due to media breaking down with your current fertilizing schedule? And how can you tell that it is time to repot? regards, Doug dvg
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Post by dvg on Mar 29, 2010 20:01:58 GMT -10
Since there seems to be some interest being stirred up about soil fertilizing, i thought this resurrected thread might be of some use.
It seems to me that with these fertilizers being applied on a weekly or biweekly schedule, that Nepenthes can live in a richer soil than was maybe previously supposed.
Has anyone tried growing these plants in a richer medium such as earthworm castings and leaf mould with some pumice, lava rock and cedar mulch or coarse fir bark added in for drainage?
The leaf mould would provide beneficial fungi, and the earthworm castings would be full of beneficial soil organisms. And these soil organisms could be fed periodically with a tablespoon of crude blackstrap molasses dissolved in a gallon of water. This is a very organic mix, relying on beneficial soil organisms to slowly break down the soil mix and gradually release the micronutrients to the plant's root system.
I'm just wondering if using the seaweed fertilizer mix in addition with this system would kill the soil organisms or not.
Any thoughts?
dvg
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Post by dvg on Mar 29, 2010 15:45:35 GMT -10
Hi Kain,
That's a good question that you raise...a question that I don't currently have the answer to.
But I suppose when it comes to micronutrients and trace elements, that might be one of the reasons why sea kelp derived fertilizers are so effective. The oceans of the world are very rich in most if not all of the trace elements. And sea kelp is known to contain a lot of these trace elements. As long as the salts are removed from the sea kelp, sea kelp extract should be a good soil additive, for Nepenthes. And I think some growers have had pretty decent success with using it.
dvg
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Post by dvg on Mar 29, 2010 12:41:39 GMT -10
Marka, if I use coffee from Somalia as an example, the soil in Somalia is very low in selenium.
So I would expect the selenium uptake into coffee beans from that area would be very low as well.
The point I am trying to make is, that coffee beans could contain more trace elements from some regions of the world than are found in other regions.
And although it might not affect the growth of the coffee plant per se, it could make a difference in that next growth step in Nepenthes plants.
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Post by dvg on Mar 29, 2010 12:04:49 GMT -10
The advantage of coffee (and tea) might be that it contains the whole range of plant nutrients rather than just the main few. Especially as a lot of people insist on growing neps in largely inert substrates devoid of all trace elements. Plenty of them in the wild are groing in poor, but not inert, soils. Marka, that could very well be true. I believe that the coffee plant is similar to the ginseng plant in that they both leach a lot of the nutrients out of the soil that they are growing in. So it could be, that depending upon what region in the world that the coffee beans were harvested from, could in turn determine what soil elements and micronutrients were taken up by those respective plants. I have wondered if coffee beans from Sumatra might in fact be more beneficial to Nepenthes than say coffee grown in Colombia or Ethiopia, maybe just because some Neps are native to Sumatra. I'm not aware of any coffee bean composition analysis though. Just some food for thought. dvg
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Post by dvg on Mar 29, 2010 11:29:12 GMT -10
Hi Rainforest, I'm happy to see that you decided to offer some of your thoughts here on this topic. As you are one of the more vocal proponents of the benefits of soil fertilizing Nepenthes plants, your input here is appreciated. I agree that there hasn't been any testing of Nepenthes being fed coffee vs fertilizer against a non treated plant, that I'm aware of. Such testing would also be more telling if a larger sample of test subjects were used rather than just three cuttings from one plant, just because of differences in cutting size, number of leaves, development of individual root systems as well as where the cutting was taken on the stem. Although that test would probably be interesting, it might not reveal enough to be considered truly scientific. I have used coffee on all of my Nepenthes: villosa's, macrophylla's, hamata's, veitchii's, aristo's, platychila's to name a few. I have found it to be safe, as none have been harmed. I also found it to be beneficial in terms of growth stimulation. For example, this N. villosa shown here in the link below has had three coffee feedings, once every six months or so. The first two pics are one month before the first feeding, and the subsequent pics are all with this plant being fed coffee. lhnn.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=s&action=display&thread=3436Of course, one plant doesn't count for much of a sample, but I think it does show that coffee is fairly safe for Neps. And for a noted slow growing higlander, this villosa puts out a new leaf every single month, so it appears that the coffee feeding doesn't seem to be interfering with it's growth too much. But until a decently conducted test is actually done, it still remains to be seen just how effective coffee feeding will in the end match up against other Nepenthes' soil fertilizers. dvg
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