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Post by dvg on Dec 3, 2009 15:32:38 GMT -10
I received this N. villosa back in May of 2008 from CZ Plants out of the Czech Republic. I potted it up into a 5" plastic pot. January 2009 February 2009 Here is a pic of the five gallon terrarium this villosa shares with a couple of room mates, from left to right: N. macrophylla, N. villosa and N. rajah. May 2009 June 2009 August 2009 One of the room mates moved out for need of bigger digs. So now the roomies are from left to right: N. macrophylla, N.villosa and a newer but smaller N. villosa from BE. This newer villosa is very similar in size to the villosa sitting next to it, when I first received it back in May of 2008. October 2009 November 2009 December 2009 This villosa is currently just over five and a half inches in diameter from leaf tip to leaf tip, and the new leaf is still growing. I'm hoping that by spring this plant will be seven or eight inches in diameter. Wish me luck.
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Post by dvg on Nov 17, 2009 12:19:18 GMT -10
I really like the 3rd and 5th Neps on this page. I was wondering which ones they were.
The third one looks like it has more veitchii in it, almost a little like hurreliana.
The fifth one looks like it has a lot of truncata in it, maybe something like AW's truncata 'Red Leaf'.
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Post by dvg on Nov 17, 2009 11:08:46 GMT -10
Those are some incredibly beautiful Nepenthes you grow there Leilani.
With all of the time you spend tending to them, it's good to see that you still had some extra time to muse about the ants.
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Post by dvg on Nov 17, 2009 10:41:27 GMT -10
Thanks for that link Walterg. Self assembly huh? You know this isn't going to be sitting too well with the Worker Ants Labor Union. Interestingly, at the 60th Anual Meeting of the Division of Fluid Dynamics, held in Salt Lake City a couple of years back, there was a seminar dealing with this topic: 'Capillary self-assembly of floating bodies' They did mention mosquito larvae floating on the water surface. meetings.aps.org/Meeting/DFD07/Event/73130I wonder if someone there would have had an answer to this problem Leilani has posed for us. Oh, and btw Leilani, I think you're off the hook for this one...this is going a bit beyond any of the material covered in an undergrad Physics 101 textbook. Perhaps if you were to get in touch with one of the three authors of the paper, you would get the definitive answer you were looking for. Although this might answer the question of why the ants clump together, it might still leave you wondering why they are still stranded in the middle of the vessel. Hmmm, these guys might know the answer to that one as well... Kinda interesting that the three MIT authors were all mathematicians.
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Post by dvg on Nov 16, 2009 16:41:06 GMT -10
I still think that there are electrostatic forces at play here. When the fruit flies were clumped and floating as a group in the center of my watering can, some of the flies on the outer fringe of the floating island would succeed in kicking themselves free from the rest of the group. They would kick themselves out and away by a full body length at least and often times even more than that. But then, just as it looked like they had freed themselves from the group, they were then pulled back to the group as if by an invisible tractor beam. I got to thinking that maybe the flies had an electrostatic charge and the center of the fluid's surface had a different potential charge. And because opposites attract, at least charge-wise, electrostatic forces could be responsible for holding the ants and flies in the centers of their respective containers. Is it possible for insects and water to carry electrostatic charges? As it turns out, live insects do carry an electrostatic charge: www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118611790/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0Then I tried to find if water, especially water with an intact surface tension was in anyway connected with electrostatic forces. And again, I found out that water molecules are attracted to one another by electrostatic forces known as van der Waals forces or van der Waals bonds. Van der Waals forces are responsible for water and other fluids having a skin or surface tension. And these electrostatic forces are disrupted by wetting agents or surfactants, such as liquid dish soap. Because I only have a slow dial up connection, it takes a long time for me to download some of these science papers. If I could find something that verifies that there is a higher electrostatic charge in the center of a fluid in a vessel, that might solve our little problem. This only seems to work this way if the surface tension is intact. Maybe Leilani could ask someone on the physics forum if they were aware of differing concentrations of electrostatic charges on fluids that still had their surface tensions intact. I'm guessing that there is a higher charge at the center of the fluid's surface, versus the edges where the fluid and the vessels' wall interact. This electrostatic charge at the surface center of the vessel, would be of a different electrostatic potential than the electrostatic charge the insects were carrying, thus keeping them corralled in the middle of the vessel. With them unable to get very much traction, due to the low friction coefficient of the water's surface, weak electrostatic charges could keep them bound in the middle of a vessel's surface. I believe that there could be a different charge near the center, because pure water is a good insulator. As a consequence of this insulating ability, it could store an electrostatic charge, just as a capacitor does. Capacitors rely on the insulating ability of air, so it is possible that with a strong surface tension in water, already employing electrostatic forces, these forces could utilize the insulating properties of water to build up a potential difference in charge between the perimeter of the fluid and the center of it's surface. As good as this sounds, I soon found out there is very little in the way of formal papers written about electrostatic charges on fluid's with a strong surface tension. So it might be difficult to prove this. But if it isn't true, this idea will be a very welcome addition to the voluminous bins of pseudo-science. ;D
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Post by dvg on Nov 15, 2009 4:50:37 GMT -10
Ah, so our little problem could very well be heading to it's satisfactory conclusion? In the end I believe the answer will lie or be closely tied in with the surface tension of the fluids in question. Whether it be a Nepenthes pitcher fluid, the swirling water in a plastic garden watering can, or the red wine left uncorked in a bottle: as long as the surface tension of the fluids is kept intact, small insects will , at this point, be mysteriously pushed to the middle of the vessels' fluid surface, by some as yet undescribed force or forces. (At this point, the more exotic and mysterious, the better) However, by breaking the surface tension, as would be the case with adding a drop of liquid dish detergent to the mix, the said insects are suddenly released from their bonds, and are free to escape or drown, because they no longer walk on water nor are they held together, as if by some invisible hand. I'm of two minds with this problem being solved: one part of me would like to know why these insects are held out on an island unto themselves unable to escape, and the other part of me still enjoys the entertainment and stimulation of imagining these possible forces that could be responsible. Once the genie is back in the bottle, and we know 'the' answer to this problem, I'm afraid i will feel like I did, that day so many years ago, when the seven unlikely castaways were rescued from that infamous island, after they had become lost at sea. So too for me, what had started out as our 'three hour tour', will once again, come to it's bittersweet but hopefully satisfactory climax.
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Post by dvg on Nov 14, 2009 23:25:12 GMT -10
Coriolis is interesting and easily tested - which way do the critters circle when they swirl towards the center? Clockwise or counterclockwise? (And can anyone remember which applies in which hemisphere?) When you flush your toilet, watch which way the water swirls down the drain. Should be clockwise in the northern hemisphere and counter clockwise in the Southern. And I agree, knowing the current status quo explanation to this problem, would burst our bubble of fun... and douse these wild speculations.
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Post by dvg on Nov 6, 2009 9:47:12 GMT -10
I'm still having fun with these limericks. I'll have to post some pics later to offset these digressions. 'Said the Sundew to the Spider' Our traps, to us, are suited You're mobile, while I'm rooted We eat the same food And not to seem rude... But I hate being looted! 'Replied the Spider to the Sundew' I steal; despite how you feel, It works out, it's a fair deal Because of the glue You make in your dew I might end up as your meal
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Post by dvg on Nov 4, 2009 14:36:26 GMT -10
Yes Walter, I am a fan of Ogden Nash as well. I can remember his very short "Breaking the Ice" poem from my school daze.
I decided to do a haiku for the Terra Forums contest too.
'Cloud Forest Mistress'
Veiled Nepenthes warmed by Sol's caress, wakes from mist enshrouded dreams
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Post by dvg on Nov 2, 2009 5:37:15 GMT -10
Well with all of the thinking I did with that floating ant problem, I was inspired to enter an ant related limerick in a poetry contest offered up on Terra Forums. Here's my entry:
'Wet Peristome'
Two ants once wagered a bet 'Round they'd race, this track slicked wet They revved to VAROOM! But plunged to their doom Damned to swim laps of regret
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Post by dvg on Oct 31, 2009 12:30:54 GMT -10
Well now I think that the viscoelastic pitcher fluid has little to do with the ants in the centre of the pitcher, and though interesting is more of a distraction in this problem. I noticed that about three or four cultivated flightless fruit flies had fallen into my plastic watering can with a cylindrical base. They were all in the middle of the pitcher. I emptied the watering can and refilled it to about half full. I then added about fifteen D. hydei winged but flightless fruit flies. They all randomly landed on the water surface and began very slowly swirling in a clockwise direction. As the flies swirled and also tried to maneuver on the water's surface, they at times came close to other flies. Once they got with about a half a centimeter they would be drawn together by some force. Rather quickly the 15 solo flies became 4 groups with one group being comprised of just a single fruit fly. Of interest, I did noticed that some flies were able to kick off from the rest of the flies they were adhered to. They would kick out and away about a 1/2 to 3/4 of a centimeter. And then they would be drawn right back and usually backwards to the group they just tried to push off from. It wasn't too long until all four groups merged into one group at the center of the plastic pitcher. At no time did any fly get any closer than within one inch of the pitcher wall. So now I've seen this unknown force at play, and still don't honestly know for certain what is causing them. It would be reassuring to say and believe that the spinning of the earth helps cause vortexes in the water, or even that water surface tension and electrostatic charges were somehow responsible, or perhaps that even that the depressed areas under the flies, caused by their small weight, on a surface area with tension will be drawn together. Hey that reminds me, if it is surface tension that is allowing the existance of the depressed areas of water that the flies are on, then something that breaks the surface tension should release the flies from their bonds. The problem is kind of like having two bowling balls on a trampoline...they will be drawn to the center. If cannonballs were dropped on a trampoline, the effect would be all the more dramatic, as the depression that the weight of several of them would cause closer balls to roll towards them. Clearly a bit of gravity working there? If I was to drop a few drops of liquid dish soap into the pitcher that would break the surface tension. Well I did that and almost immediately the flies started to separate apart. Within a few minutes there were flies at the edge of the pitcher with one even crawling out. So somehow surface tension plays a big part in this problem. The small weight of the flies, enough to slightly depress the surface tension of the water, but not break it, causes the flies through gravity to sink to the lowest area together on the water's skin, just as the cannonballs would sink to the center of a trampoline. If anything this problem for me was quite stimulating. In the end I'd thought about it quite a bit, but still didn't have a real definitive answer...but left with a sense of wonderment and awe about the workings of some things amongst us. For just that, the exercise was worth it.
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Post by dvg on Oct 30, 2009 22:01:40 GMT -10
I was thinking some more about this problem when I was driving home tonight. Now I'm thinking that the ants are suspended in the middle of the pitcher because the sticky elastic filaments are denser and stickier around the flailing, agitating ants, holding them together in a kind of tightly wound, sticky mesh. Perhaps knots of entangled viscous filaments are binding the ants all together into a denser inner core, making up this ant island. However, on the outskirts or outer area just beyond the outer perimeter of the ant island, the pitcher fluid is less agitated or wound up, and thus less dense. This outer perimeter pitcher fluid being less dense acts as a soft buffer to keep the main ant island partially centered in the pitcher tube, and keeping the denser inner core from moving up against the pitcher wall. Depeding upon how hard the ants are struggling on their side of the island will determine how far out their buffer extends past the perimeter. Therefore if one side of the ants making up a half of the floating island struggles, and conversely, the other side of the ant island relaxes and doesn't expend any of their energy into the viscoelastic pitcher fluid, the ant island could be displaced from the pitcher center, with the passive ant side of the island being closer to the pitcher wall. I wonder if only one to three ants were in the pitcher, if their little ant island might float around the picher fluid a bit more and not necessarily be exaltly centered. Anyways, those are just a few of my thoughts. Does anybody else have any more ideas why this phenomenon is occuring? Leilani? Any further thoughts?
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Post by dvg on Oct 30, 2009 6:43:05 GMT -10
That's an interesting problem you have posed for us Leilani, and I am also curious as to why the ants seem to stay in the middle of the pitcher.
I read an article in 'New Scientist' magazine, published back in June 7-13 2008. The piece written by Stephanie Pain, was entitled 'Gotcha', and dealt with Nepenthes pitcher's trapping mechanisms.
Of interest here was that a couple of French scientists, Laurence Gaume and Yoel Forterre, found that the
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Post by dvg on Oct 16, 2009 15:01:10 GMT -10
Very well done Nepnut! Those crispy sharp photos of your incredibly well grown beautiful plants is a real treat. Thanks for posting and hope to see more from you in the future.
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