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Post by Marcello Catalano on Nov 2, 2008 14:48:36 GMT -10
Man, I never understand your english Anyway, if you mean you want to see an experiment with osmocote, here it is: pitcherplants.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=6389But if you just mean "show me good plants grown with osmocote, and/or coir, mate, you know I have tons But I didn't mean Osm and Mir together. And of course with Osmocote, like I guess with all fertilizers, you must know how to handle it. Lots of people ear this "never do that", "always do that" and they take wrong conclusions. Personally I don't use fertilizers anymore at all for example. And I started again growing my plants in sand/perlite 50/50. But still: Miracid works great, Osmocote works great, sphagnum works great, peat works great, coir works great, insect-only feeding works great...your success or failure depends on so many factors...Saying: that never works, or that always works is the worse thing ever in cultivation. Lately for example I understood that Osmocote doesn't go too well with perlite, as this seems to retain the osm salts and poison the plants (like many other porous materials?). But I saw this on my sand/perlite mix, where the roots were probably looking for the perlite to absorb water. I changed the soil to a new mix of sand/perlite, without osm, and the plants suddenly started growing again. How much can the perlite/osmocote couple negatively affect a peat-based compost? How much can be a peat or sphagnum based compost be affected by the fact that you have to water 3 times a day when using osmocote, waterlogging these sponge-like composts? That's why I think that the more open and draining coir and osmocote are a perfect couple! You see, it's not "it always works", "it never works"... Marcello
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Post by rainforest on Nov 3, 2008 9:13:19 GMT -10
Coir does not work for so many people. I have read so many accounts of people having root problems with coir that it is not a good substrate for beginners. You yourself is not using coir and is using an inorganic media, why is that since you like coir so much! Is coir NOT GOOD for you?
As for Miracid, the acid portion of this fertilizer is NOT a GOOD thing for persons using a substrate such as coir since a soil that is too acid will prevent nepenthes from growing well. Or do you repot and replace this media on an ongoing basis? The acid breaks down the coir at a rapid rate, thus is NOT GOOD. An acid media also breaks down LFS and almost any organic component. Miracle grow fertilizers in general are not clean fertilizers. Many have solids which never mix well and will always remain as inorganic salts that will accumulate in the media causing build up and root problems after prolonged use. This is the harmful effects sometimes attributed to fertilizers for not being good or having burned your plant ,thus is NOT GOOD for nepenthes.
Osmocote also has salts which residue in the media which accumulates and will cause problems. The osmocote resin balls also creates an environment which is inducing to bacterial and fungal root problems. The osmotic process uses salts that transmit nutrients by way of salt and water moving from a region of higher concentration to an area of lower concentration until equilibrium is met and then reverses direction.
So these are some of the reasons why coir, osmocote and Miracid is NOT GOOD for nepenthes.
M
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Post by Marcello Catalano on Nov 4, 2008 6:30:29 GMT -10
THE COIR PROBLEM: The problem with coir is that a good portion of it comes from places where they use salty water to produce it. When the salt, even in small quantities, remains in the soil, it can be harmless to most plants, but deadly to carnivores. Here in Italy there's just one brand of coir, more expensive than peat, and that will rot after 2 weeks. As far as I know in Thailand they use coir with success, also because there's no peat on the market. I tried so many mixes I can't even remember. Most of them worked fine. Each of them has good and bad sides. I live in Italy my friends , at the fifth floor of a building. Many of you could ignore these conditions (one day me too hopefully!), but here we have 30-40 percent of humidity for the whole year, 35-40 degrees night/day in full summer indoor, 15-30 degree night/day in full winter indoor. Growing Nepenthes requires some efforts With a mix that easily gets too wet I have problems in winter with lowland species. Plus, now I'm growing only indochinese species, and that means 1 metre of growth every year. With sand I have open, drier soil (I even leave them in standing water!) and when they overgrow it's not a problem taking them out of the pot, cut leaves and roots, leave the tuber and put it back in the same mix of sand/perlite. No waste of money and organic soil anymore. Sand/perlite will last forever. The problem is that it's heavy and poor, so the plants grow slower and smaller, but very healthy (with indochinese species, so vigorous, you don't see the bad sides too much). I give them chicken meat, and that works great. But I've seen my plants growing like crazy in the last two years in sphagnum and/or peat mixed with perlite and with osmocote on the top. It seems that a few species don't even care that the soil is decomposing too fast, as long as you give them some new osmocote! THE MIRACID AND OSMOCOTE PROBLEM: Most people don't know how much to use of these, they forget to water every day, they can't recognize a plant suffering because it needs repotting (yes, you are right there, because the soil was "eaten" by the osmocote). But still, it works great. Coir is good and cheap in tropical countries, but it will last maybe one year; 6 months if osmocote is used. Peat and sphagnum are great, will last longer, they will take the osmocote for more than one year (the sphagnum more than the peat!) and your plants will grow like crazy, but you risk to water too much because they absorb water more than coir. So it's fine if you live in the tropics and if you have healthy specimens. I wouldn't use it on a rafflesiana suffering for the cold here in Italy in December. I know Wistuba uses Miracid on all his plants, that are planted in dry, long fiber sphagnum and Perlite, and it works great, no algae, great plants. He does the Miracid by himself, buying the ingredients!!!! But still, with any organic mix, after 1-3 years or a bit more, you'll have to repot. Is that enough to say they aren't good? No. So, a part from a lot of scientific words, seeing great plants growing for a long time in the soil/fertilizers that you say aren't good, is enough for me to repeat: NEVER SAY NEVER Instead, learn why and when it works or it doesn't. Marcello
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Robiii
Nobiles
Grow the new world
Posts: 262
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Post by Robiii on Nov 4, 2008 11:20:08 GMT -10
I believe Micheal is more aiming for change in media to help not have most of the above problems happen at all or to have much less detrimental affects from the above medias. I've grown neps in coir chips, orchid bark, cedar mulch, sand peat, perlite, LF sphagnum, and hapuu fiber. Out of the above these were my problem medias: coir chip, pure LFS (or mostly), and with some neps peat would cause some problems. Though some may have success with osmocote and miracid not all will and even in the fours years I have been growing, I've heard a lot of the same negative results. I do agree with the fact that some media will work for some and some won't for others.
Rob
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Post by Marcello Catalano on Nov 5, 2008 6:03:59 GMT -10
Yeah, exactely. Well, Michael, if you find a mix that can work for all Nep species in all climates and conditions, I'm sure we would be all enthusiastic! About the living sphagnum, it often gives problems because we use it just thinking that it's like dead sphagnum but better in quality. Unfortunately living sphagnum is...living. To have good results you must keep it alive. You can put dead sphagnum in a plastic pot and it will last a lot, like the best peat. You can't with live sphagnum, because it will die, it will rot in a non-artificial way (the dry sphagnum on sale is treated to become like it is, if you dry some sphagnum by yourself the result will be different), and it will bring to rot the roots too. A layer of perlite, or peat and perlite, or dead sphagnum at the base of the living sphagnum will keep it alive. I think if you use a clay pot for example, you are not going to have this problem... (on the pitcher-plants forum there's a guy who had the same problem, you can see that in some very explaining photos: pitcherplants.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=6715)I'm surprised about the problem with coir chips, but that could still be related to the salt, I wouldn't be surprised if all the people of the same Country are having problems with coir, I don't think that each Country has 5 different types of coir coming from different Companies...It seems that at least Hawaii and Italy were not lucky Also, I would like to ear from the people who had negative results using osmocote or miracid, to see photos, and ear how often, with which quantity, soil and temperature it was used...Maybe we can arrive to make some conclusion about when and how it works Marcello
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Post by rainforest on Nov 5, 2008 14:27:37 GMT -10
Let's make one point clear. Nepenthes on the whole has no problems with salts (as in sea salts). The problem with coir is not the salt issue. It is the problem with rapid decomposition and creating the "juice" from which causes tannins to be released thus causing harm to the nepenthes delicate root systems. I have tried soaking, washing, drying and rewetting with no avail. The stuff works good initially when still in its original form, but as time passes, they decompose too rapidly and this causes severe problems for nepenthes growing in an unstable media which only gets worst over time. Perhaps my fertilizing regime is not proper for the use of coir and fertilizing.
Miracid changes the chemical composition of many nutrients when used on an ongoing basis. Nepenthes responds better to a basic pH watering scheme. Acidity just causes hardships for nepenthes tender roots.
This is why you never see nepenthes growing in pure peat bogs, just as marginals and always near coral, limestone or other basic component.
M
M
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victoria
Insignes
The ignorance of man stains the land!
Posts: 52
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Post by victoria on Nov 6, 2008 3:17:16 GMT -10
Thank you for clarifying why you feel coir is not suitable for Neps.
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Post by Marcello Catalano on Nov 6, 2008 5:24:27 GMT -10
Man, I'm scared by the way you pronounce such an amount of ...ehm, "stuff"... using a scientific language and the tone of the founder of the World Nepenthes Society! Some people could even believe you!! -Nepenthes have no problems with sea salt (ok, some species tolerate it, but...!) -the problem with coir is not the salt issue (you should say that to the whole Kew Gardens) -Miracid damages the roots (Say that to all the experienced growers that used it since the '86) -you never see Nepenthes growing in pure peat bogs (say that to any expert who pubblished a book about Nepenthes) Oh dear...mate, read a book, read the old posts of omnisterra since the eighties, read something, please!! At least is good that you say "perhaps my fertilizing regime is not good". I agree when you say that it decomposes rapidly, with fertilizer even more, like many other composts, but please don't scare all those hundreds of people that are using coir for their plants with success! Guys, don't be scared, compost mixes always give different results, Michael is trying to find something good for all plants, that's good, but if your plants are growing well in a compost, think 100 times before changing it! Michael, I'm afraid you could list another 1000 of improper things like the ones above, this discussion could last ages and become nasty. I just suggest all readers what follows (and I'm sure you'll agree with me here Michael): before giving reason to me or to him, changing your way to grow your plants in one way or the other, please listen to the opinion of another 20 EXPERIENCED growers, read other forums, posts by EXPERIENCED growers, and read books of EXPERIENCED people! Marcello
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Post by rainforest on Nov 6, 2008 8:39:47 GMT -10
I think you need to read those books more carefully. Nepenthes according to Clarke, Lee, et al say that nepenthes are never grown in pure peat bogs. Coir and Miracid seems to make deadly partners. The next time you make a solution of Miracid/Miracle Grow look at the bottom of the salts and see what isn't dissolved. Now save that and the next hundred batches of this and see what happens. These are all in the pots and do not ever dissolve when you rewater with plain water.
I don't recall seeing any of your success stories on any of these pages. Sounds more like you might have stock in Miracid than really use it.
I have grown nepenthes for a long time and have modified my practice from experiences and failures and post what I feel are the most significant contributions. And just because I didn't write a book on the subject doesn't make me any less than people who have. I believe everyone in nepenthes know about me and I represent the moral minority when it comes down to how the practice of nepenthes culture and research of plants are concerned, they know I am all about making success stories a reality.
My biggest discovery is that nepenthes actually prefers a media with basic ingredients added in. When roots reach the basic buffer zone this is what actually creates success in growing nepenthes to adult plants.
M
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obregon562
Nobiles
"I do believe Im feeling stronger everyday."
Posts: 387
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Post by obregon562 on Nov 6, 2008 11:46:26 GMT -10
{My biggest discovery is that nepenthes actually prefers a media with basic ingredients added in. When roots reach the basic buffer zone this is what actually creates success in growing nepenthes to adult plants. } What do you think, then, would be the optimum nepenthes soil mix then? interesting discussion guys! thanks!
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Post by jgriffin on Nov 6, 2008 14:15:32 GMT -10
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Post by rainforest on Nov 6, 2008 15:00:18 GMT -10
The goal with nepenthes is to create a harmonious balance of neutrality. A media too acidic causes root rots while a media too basic causes stunting. But most activities we do (watering, fertilizing, spraying, media decomposition, old plant parts remaining, etc. ) all leads to acidity. There isn't enough activities we do to try to curb this. In nature, there are many basic elements at work. Addition of new (even organic ingredients) promotes the absorption of acid, thus removing the acidity from the environment. Water running through waterway thoroughfares of lime stone, coral, etc. also brings basic components that when mixes with the present acid available, turns the pH back to neutral.
High acidity kills bacteria/fungal agents and other active agents in soil. These bacteria/fungal agents is beneficial in root symbiosis and in highly acidic soils, this does not happen. Example is the perfectly preserved man from the peat bogs intact to his skin and flesh.
The highest populations or species occurrence is always found where basic rock overlaps with any media aggregate (peat, fern root, soil, compost, mosses, etc.) which coincide together. This is what I call the neutral zone and many regions, this is a common occurrence.
M
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Nov 6, 2008 15:26:10 GMT -10
Hey Michael,
Couldn't you just add a little limestone? People have been using it for a long time, for the exact same purpose -- it conditions the soil. However, they didn't understand ions, salts and such, they just called it "sweetening the soil".
The only species which actually grows almost exclusively in peat swamps is N. bicalcarata.
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Post by nepromantic on Nov 6, 2008 17:22:27 GMT -10
Rainforest you raise the point with a more neutral media supporting symbiotic bacteria/fungi better than acidic. Has anyone had experience with adding trichoderma to nep media? I have tried it but never done comparisons so couldn't claim works or doesn't. I would suspect the negative experiences other CP growers have had with this are due to the acidic and wet/lower oxygen environments those plants like not supporting trichoderma. I have gone through a few photos of wild neps people have posted around the place and they do tend to show plants in the mixed environment you suggest, often with only a very thin layer of organic matter over gravel/stone/clay agregates (exceptions of course are epiphytic growers, N. bicalcarata and some of the Australian plants in sand to pure peat boggy swamp like areas - but I understand they dry out during summer months? example see pitcherplants.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=nepwild&action=display&thread=6157 hope I'm allowed to post this link, sorry if I'm not). Cheers, Simon
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Nov 6, 2008 17:45:34 GMT -10
High acidity kills bacteria/fungal agents and other active agents in soil. These bacteria/fungal agents is beneficial in root symbiosis and in highly acidic soils, this does not happen. Example is the perfectly preserved man from the peat bogs intact to his skin and flesh. Accuracy rating: so, so. Yes, pH is very important to plant health. People, mostly men, found in peat bogs are preserved not by acid, but rather a near complete absence of oxygen. Trust me, there aren't any roots of any plants living in that deep anaerobic soil, unless the plant is somehow pumping oxygen down to it's roots.
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