Nepenthes World According to Michael

[rainforest]

Adding limestone to growing media is not advisable. It is better if nepenthes roots can grow toward, adapt and modify their root structure to facilitate nutrient absorption through media changes over time. The root structure that grows in basic media is not the same kind of roots growing in an acid media. The roots of organic/ acidic media tend to be fine hair-like and black in color while roots of those found growing in basic media tend to be more brown and thicker. These may also be advances for plant support by way of penetrating crevices and supporting upper plant growth and stability.


M

[nepromantic]

Although orchid related, this article is well worth a read with regard to coir chip based mixes similar to that used by many nepenthes growers, due to its more scientific nature. I think it will be helpfull to most if you look at the data and tables keeping in mind what has been posted in this forum and your particular growing environment and the info about adding basic media.
ladyslipper.com/coco3.htm

[rainforest]

While the article does say they use coco bark chips, they fail to mention what sort of pots/containers used. I have several orchid growers that use coco bark and they have not said anything wrong with it. But these plants are grown in the media just for sales when in flower and rarely do they remain back to be transitioned to larger pots.
The coc media breaks down and turns to a sledge like media reminiscent of bread pudding, so no way is air able to easily penetrate the lower levels and prevent this media from staying too wet.

The coco bark media must be generously supplemented with basic components to prevent itself from being an acid bath. I've used to grow in coco bark since early 1999's and on my oldest plants I have experienced root loss when the media breaks down and prevent root oxygenation.

I have completely transplanted everything from coco bark into media of mainly pine bark mulch (fine) and perlite, cinders, coral chips and cedar mulch dressing. The pine bark mulch do break down but the coarse media and mulch prevent it from turning into a jello aggregate where root loss occurs in coco bark.

I believe those growers who claim to have success with coco bark tend to sell their plants while still young and not requiring several attempts at repotting them to larger sized containers.

M

[Dave Evans]

Michael,

I think you own some of this mix's success to its good granulation. Granulation is key to water and roots being able too flow and grow into the soil as well as allow nutrients to move about and come into to contact with the root system.

From your discription, it sounds like the Coir just lost all granulation and gelled together. I would never use any soil which has only one ingredient because this can happen even when using something as "safe" as _Sphagnum_ moss, much less often but it can still happen. Each soil mix needs to have good granulation, when it starts to loose it, it is time to repot or find a better mix that stay granulated for a longer time frame.

[rainforest]

The jello contained cinders, perlite, and pumice. It is like a jello mold with fruits and veggies in it with the porous materials being the fruits and veggies, yet jello was still congealed with everything combined. The media was equal 50/50 and the jello won out!

Like I said it took me a very long time replanting everything into a media of more mineral content over organic components. Don't want to go there again. Just a warning for those who are wholeheartedly investing in coir/coco chips to be forewarned. This media is very bio-degradable and the outcome is something very UNdesirable. Use caution no matter what you read. The orchid growers who use coir failed to mention that they also use these special air cone pots with a raised center and this may help, but in larger pots this container doesn't work and is very expensive. The larger containers even of this type leads to problems and many orchid growers say they do experience a higher disease factor in coir on more matured plants.

M

[nepromantic]

Quote "While the article does say they use coco bark chips, they fail to mention what sort of pots/containers used" they use 2.5 inch SVD "rose" pots (deeper than they are wide)... small size probably has a bearing on this. They also say that they find smaller grade breaks down after 12 to 18 months in their conditiions. So this follows what you have been saying.

Rainforest: how long have you had plants in that media to date? Do you mix the coral chips through the media or place a layer at the base? Limestone supplimentation is also a topic for some orchid growers, I think it is very interesting but logical topic for neps.

[rainforest]

The orcchid growers who do have partial success stories using coco/coir all use the raised centered "air" rose (a rose pot is basically a name given to pots that are twice as deep as they are wide, conversely azalea pots which are twice as wide as they are deep) pots as these raise the soil level around the roots and allow free drainage. But what this article doesn't say is that almost all the orchid growers that I know who use coir/coco also use styrofoam peanuts at the bottom of their pots. A media while not mentioned in any scientific data, is used to help prevent that inevitable collapse/compaction of soil at root bottom.

The addition of coral, limestone chips, and other basic components should be best used in a media which is already embedded in the mix. Adding limestone, etc. to the surface seriously does irreversible damage than good. Although I have used coral chips to "sweeten" medias which have been overrun with acid compounds yielding newer growth (as well as basal flushes) just from the addition of coral into their surface.

I have begun some new experimentation where fertilizer is diluted and filtered through a mesh of coral chips before application to nepenthes. It is still too premature to say what effects and long term effects this will have on nepenthes. From what I have experienced with nepenthes seedlings using this media/fertilizer source are plants with more leathery and thicker foliage. The root system has changed from I usually see, and I am seeing more brown thicker roots over the black fine mesh roots that we see on everything. Some species such as thorelii, sp. Viking, and even rowanaes have thicker root systems almost tuberous like. I believe that this "hard" water treatment and media composition contributes or encourages thicker root development. But this is just in its infancy. Further experimentation and media compaction are still years ahead of time. We will see the long term effects on hard media/nutrition after many of my plants approach their third year. From observing their root structure when repotting, all I can say is that I see less black fine roots and more dark brown thicker roots on seedlings.
Other observations is plants exposed to more basic medias show plants that do not experience that peculiar die-back symptoms experienced in heavily organic medias. Seedling leaves remain until the plant has attained some stem length with even fresh living pitchers still with color and substance from their first pitchers all the way to plants beginning uppers. But this may also be attributed to humidity and watering frequencies.

More later.

M

[jgriffin]

Funny timing, lol, I was just on Proboard and this topic was responded to:

pitcherplants.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=soil&action=display&thread=3854

I am guessing this mix has long been discarded, right Michael?

You have to admit, the timing is ironic...

Cheers,

Joe

[rainforest]

I once supplemented the more expensive medias with coco bark but soon learned that it is actually toxic over time and I removed all of my media containing coco. So before you go overboard with this stuff, experiment it on your not so rare stuff. Or simply use a gritty inorganic mix and lose the stress.

M

[jgriffin]

Who said anything about going overboard? I was just noting the irony that somebody posted else where in response to a Q you asked three years ago.
But that is good advice, and a good reason to not grow only rare stuff.
It's good debate to why coco products worked horriible for you and great for others(Rob from BE uses them and has giant flowering plants).
Many also do not like sphagnum moss, and others worship it .

Cheers,

Joe

[Robiii]

I've had similar negative (jello/sludge) results with 50% or more long fibered sphagnum, coco chips, and high amounts of other organic medias as cedar mulch (40% or more), peat moss (varying amounts). Other than those I've only had small pine bark after a year become a problem, but that was expected after seeing what it had turned into. I'm currently using an assortment of, listed in order in which higher amounts are used :

A. various bark fir/pine (fine through large to XL)
B. cinder (black and red)
C. cedar mulch (sifted)
D. sand (beach, basalt, river sand)
E. peat moss (sphagnum origin)
F. perlite in small to moderate amounts
G. hapuu fiber/chunks

[jgriffin]

Red and black cinder...would that be another name for lava pebbles? Or as some call it , scoria?
Yours turned to sludge too? And you live in Hawaii also....
What were you both using for fertilizer(if any) at that time?
Sam, if you are reading, any similar problems for you? I think I remember rhe photo of your edwadrsiana seedling in a mix that looked to have coco husk.

Cheers,

Joe

[rainforest]

I believe Sunbelle isn't using coco bark either as are many other growers. I know of several nurseries from Hawai'i to Asian countries who have stopped using coir/coco due to root problems in plants (not nepenthes) over time. A bromeliad grower expressed problems and so did a grower who grows staghorn ferns.
Several orchid growers I know on the big island have gone back to other more expensive materials because of root problems they have seen occur in coco.

A large nursery that is the distributor for coco bark in the State, used to grow a lot of their plants in coco bark, but have mysteriously switched back to using peat moss.

M

[Robiii]

Nov 14, 2008 7:36:29 GMT -10 jgriffin said:

Red and black cinder...would that be another name for lava pebbles? Or as some call it , scoria?
Yours turned to sludge too? And you live in Hawaii also....
What were you both using for fertilizer(if any) at that time?

Cheers,

Joe

Yes my high quantities of LFS and coco turned to a sludge within 6 months (iirc) at that time I wasn't using any fertilizers at least for the first two years I had been growing them (and the last time I'll use coco, and now only a top layer of sphagnum or a small amount lightly mixed in.)

Rob

[jgriffin]

And are cinders lava pebbles?
;D