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Post by tonyp on Nov 14, 2008 6:15:09 GMT -10
WOW! I am not sure where to begin with this one.. Normally with one of your hate filled accusation flinging posts I just shrug and wonder what's up with him, figuring you are trying to alienate just about every Nepenthes grower and supplier other than EP. Well congratulations you have done a magnificent job of it here. I have never seen more bullshit flow from any one mouth in a long time, this takes the cake.
Are you on drugs or something?
I am deeply offended and outright furious at the accusations, insinuations and lies posted here. I would be happy to go through and post whatever proof needed to dispute your many points but why bother? You would, like you normally do, claim it was made up or something, to hold onto your utterly misguided ideas and validate them further in your mind.
So maybe I should try a different approach? Yes everything you say is true. All the growers and suppliers other than EP are really a consortium of evil, coniving, lying, blood sucking, Nepenthes growers. Nepenthes truncata black really did come from aliens and all the photos of seedling plants and bills for many thousands of dollars purchasing said seedlings, as well as photos from the "wild" were really produce in a Hollywood studio. Are you happy I came clean? My conscience was just weighing me down..Now I can sleep again at night.
Oh yeah, when they are finally available to the public after 10 years in the making, don't come looking to me.
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Post by rainforest on Nov 14, 2008 7:22:32 GMT -10
Ask around. People talk amongst themselves. I am just a bit more vocal than others. I speak from experiences from what I have gone through. You're a stockholder of BE, you get special treatment. Of course you can back it up. What I have posted is based on email conversations, catalog (printed from internet) descriptions and postings from other forums and direct phone conversations of a time when I too was smitten by the misinformation of what I post here today. Others have also experienced this and I'm not alone feeling this way. I have purchased plants at regular prices and without any advanced notice got an email saying some plants are now marked down to 50-75% off, after purchasing 50, 100 of that same item. Only a major a**hole can do something like that! Of course I am pissed. How about an offer for purchasing plants in large volumes to be eligible for purchasing rare seedlings at savings AFTER your order lands and as you pot them up, the news bulletin comes out and expresses discounts and options in getting rare new offers. I am not alone and if you've experienced this you are not alone, we stand in numbers being cheated like this. What do you mean, "Are you on drugs? ?" I have only experienced BULL*HIT from BE and I am letting everyone know that. If I am the only person saying this then why worry? Everyone thinks that I am crazy, but what if other people experienced this sort of treatment? Wake up call? I am just the one ringing the bell! Nobody has to listen. But if you feel offended, you should, you're a stockholder of BE. I am only posting things that have happened to me. Tony, these are experiences that happened to me, let me explain it. M
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Post by rainforest on Nov 14, 2008 7:25:53 GMT -10
BTW, democrats is spelled without an "e" unless if you're Greek.
M
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Post by rainforest on Nov 14, 2008 9:09:57 GMT -10
EP comes clean and have nothing to hide. I admire and uphold their values. I support them. Now put anyone else into that category, and think again. Everyone here chimes into the exact thing I have experienced. I read it all the time, everywhere. "The plants were so huge, well grown, generous, etc. " Others have expressed their praise. Show me somewhere where someone will say how generous, how well grown-big the other guy's plants are and you will prove me wrong. But until that time comes around shut up and put up!
"As for evil, blood sucking, etc." I didn't say anything like that, but then again, people have a mind of their own and those who have experienced what I have, probably have their own adjectives to express what they are.
This is more like a wake up call. If these growers want praise and be yoddled across the land, perhaps trying a new approach to clean up their act would follow suit. Yeah, you don't believe your eyes what you have read, but you were thinking it!
People who really know me, know what I am all about. They know I am a generous, giving, and it's all about the nepenthes hobby, I give it my all. The ones who don't know me and just read what is written here and probably believe in what you say. But I am one for not just laying down and taking it. Just because I am Asian, it doesn't necessarily mean I will shut up and put up. GET REAL!!!!
M
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Post by sockhom on Nov 14, 2008 9:25:36 GMT -10
But I am one for not just laying down and taking it. Just because I am Asian, it doesn't necessarily mean I will shut up and put up. GET REAL!!!! M Michael, what the hell are you talking about? What's your problem? Yes, EP plants are tremendous but don't you think that you speak for the silent majority. You speak mainly for yourself. I don't have any special problem with BE or Wistuba and your personal agenda is getting really annoying. Start a thread on those "cheaters" if you want; keep your peculiar thoughts stuck on that very topic and just let the other threads clean, PLEASE! François.
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Post by tonyp on Nov 14, 2008 9:37:40 GMT -10
And you have never received an order from EP or MT and had them list new items or larger sizes or quantities a few weeks later? I have oh hmm in fact just recently. This is even after asking if anything new was almost ready so I could include it to save on shipping fees etc!! So guess what I place a new order.. Have I had this happen with BE? sure! I have had the price listed drop while I had an order pending. My order was adjusted when pointed out. I bought gas yesterday and today it's 10cents cheaper!! Should I go pitch a fit and demand my $2 back since it's obviously the same gas they had yesterday?? None of this has anything to do with me owning a miniscule speck of BE the company. You claim to know what has happened to me but in reality you know nothing. But at the same time you feel free to post lies and inuendos that are potentially damaging to my reputation and standing in the CP world as a person and a businessman. A reputation I have worked hard for as an honest and fair person, and attacks against which I don't take lightly. A reputation that is of particular importance to my continued business success.
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Post by rainforest on Nov 14, 2008 11:03:53 GMT -10
Tony, your reputation is what you make of it. I have no qualms about that. But what I have been writing about is the fact that special treatment is given to some and not to others. The fact remains that the black truncata was originated as a mixed lot of seeds. I don't think so. Interestingly how specific individuals all received them and just by coincidence they happen to be BE stockholders. I find that a bit amusing don't you? Of course it is one thing to get special treatment if you are a BE stockholder (this is fine, I'm good with this, you deserve special treatment), and it is another when false advertising is done to sell mass lots of a truncata that do not have the capacity of producing a black truncata even though all the seeds were "mixed up because some Filipino collected all the seeds from the same location." I find that hard to swallow. The leaves are entirely UN-truncata as truncata can be. The black truncatas probably do not even originate from the same locale as the Pasian truncata. Yet we are led to believe this. "My reputation"? Careful, I don't take that very lightly either. Now you're sending innuendos and false accusations regarding me. I resent being cited for being a drug user. Just because someone has an opinion based on experiences that happened to me, doesn't give YOU the right to say that they are using drugs. That is offensive and if you were so worried about your reputation, worry now. For the record, I do not use drugs.
Tonyp wrote:
I'm a bit confused, where did I attack your reputation? And who gives a *hit about your reputation, I didn't berate or put down your reputation in any of my posts. You made it up. I don't see your name in any of my posts, YOU volunteered that information regarding you being a BE stockholders. I didn't realize that you were a BE stockholder until just now. M
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Post by tonyp on Nov 14, 2008 11:53:32 GMT -10
You're a stockholder of BE, you get special treatment. But now you claim you didn't know? So which is it? Not that it matters. I wasn't a stockholder when BE released the initial seed grown N. truncata Pasian plants and I most certainly didn't receive special treatment. I plunked down my multiple thousands of dollars of hard earned money to buy LOTS and I mean LOTS of seedlings on the pure hope that there might be a black one in the batch. So no I am not the slightest bit amused. I was fortunate to receive a few. And as you are all aware they were stolen this year. So I am extreamely touchy about your false claims that they were not from seed, that they were given out specail treatment to stockholders (of which I was not at the time), that they were not from seed at all but instead for cuttings of wild plants, that they couldn't have possibly grown to flowering if they were from seed. etc. You can believe whatever you want of course, but you might want to actually find out the facts first before you go posting a pile of garbage for the public to see. So in that respect it is an attack on me and my business and reputation as a fair and honest businessman, by posting all these false claims. Never have I claimed there would be black truncata to anyone that has purchased one of the seed grown plants I subsequently sold or any of the TC clones. Nor do I recall BE claiming anything of the sort either. Anyone that bothered to look at the information from BE would see the photos from wild plants of the typical N. truncata Pasian form. All along it was known that the black form was a special plant and odds of it ever showing up in cultivation were extreamly small. I am done here. There is no point arguing with one that believes whatever he wants in lue of actually finding out the facts. My apologies to Joel for the turn this thread has taken. I however feel it is necessary to defend my character and business practices. Whether you think you have or not. You have lumped me with your tirade and false claims directed at BE and hence at me directly as well.
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Post by rainforest on Nov 14, 2008 12:26:53 GMT -10
Tonyp wrote: I'm really confused here. You say you plunked thousands of dollars of hard earned money to get your black truncata and at the end you're now saying that it is not the same and couldn't ever show up randomly. So which is it? Were you handed out a black or was it from the thousands of dollars you plunked to get one by chance? ?? But you were fortunate to receive a few? What does that mean? I am so confused!!!!! Can anyone else explain what he is trying to say here? While you were NOT a stockholder when BE released the pasian truncatas, going back to my post that these were specific seed or more so, exactly collected seedlings they could still be set aside and kept for special persons for anything, just because you were NOT a stockholder during the time doesn't mean anything, the fact remains that they were "handed out" even after the initial rush of the masses were sold out. It's like me having a few variegated seedlings of a cross I germinated and even though I may have sold out of the seedlings, I kept the variegated ones to "hand out" later. Same difference here. As for your reputation regarding direct accusations, YOU volunteered the facts, I did not. As for you placing your fairness and character of being a businessman, I still hold nothing against you or your practices and have never said that you sold pasian truncatas in hopes of getting a black one. But many many people purchased pasian truncatas in hopes to obtain a black one and this (getting back to my argument) is what I have been saying all along. That the black truncata is a separate entity, a gift from an Alien planet, well before it will ever come from a Pasian truncata. Read what I post, not what you want to see! This is what I have read about the origin of the black truncata: pitcherplants.proboards34.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=6283&page=3#57395Only 9 were derived from this batch of Pasian MIXED seed lot. Funny how you purchased (as did many of us) thousands of dollars of Pasian truncatas in hopes of obtaining a black clone, as we all did! So were your black truncata from random so there are more than nine plants of the black out there? Please write this tid bit down as I have through the years, keep up with me, I will post future threads and links when needed. M
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Nov 14, 2008 12:49:55 GMT -10
Michael, Sorry, but I think you might need some drugs... Effexor maybe. Anyways, as you should well know, seed grown plants show more diversity than do TC plants because of their much larger genetic pool. What is odd about someone buying a whole bunch of seedlings with the hope of receiving something different from the rest? I'm confused since you are usually the one babbling about how wonderful seed grown plants are and, yeah, this is one of the benefits of growing from seed. You don't know what you might get; an all-red plant, maybe a variegation or a hybrid. The plants in TC are 43 clones that were not offered as seedlings, so no they are not the exact same plants. Wow... What a terrible plot against us. Thanks for the tip about Demoncrats.
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Post by tonyp on Nov 14, 2008 13:35:52 GMT -10
clarification post:
Keep up with me..I purchased a big pile of seed grown plants for a really big pile of money. They were all labelled N. truncata Pasian highland. That is all. There were no special plants or gifts or plants labelled differently or handouts due to special treatment. They all looked like N. truncata seedlings. There was nothing special looking about any of them. After growing them for 6months-1year three plants began to show black characteristics/color.
Is that clear enough?
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Post by nepsaroundthehouse on Nov 14, 2008 16:31:18 GMT -10
There's no apologies needed to me for this heated discussion occurring in my thread. The whole purpose of this thread in my area was to bring about conversation about Nepenthes that might be rumor, myth, or whatever is floating around the Nepenthes community. I think anyone who knows Rainforest knows he can be fiery and opinionated at times as well as "controversial" to a point. In other words, he stirs the pot and doesn't hold back. While I don't condone personal attacks on other growers and nurseries and their products, I'll leave censorship up to Uncle Masa to draw the line of what he feels necessary in this forum and what he considers as crossing the line.
As for Tony's reputation. I'll chime in here because I've been purchasing my Nepenthes from Tony for a long time and his stuff does the best for me period. He even hardens them off extra for me because he knows I put my plants through hell. I can't sing Tony's praises enough. I also believe anyone who has done business with him knows that he is honest and is extremely knowledgeable about Nepenthes. To me, he's one of the top importers and dealers in Nepenthes in the United States. I don't know where I'd be with my plants today without him.
I think what is at hand is some bitter feelings in regard to dealings with BE. That's an area I have no experience with. Tony and Rainforest obviously do. So if the discussion is about black truncatas, seed grown vs tc, or why EPs Nepenthes are stronger than BE's or vice versa, that can be a healthy discussion. The origins of how some of these Nepenthes and hybrids have made it into cultivation is also great discussion especially when there is variation. The sibuyanensis x hamata BE cross comes to mind.
Hopefully this thread doesn't become Tony vs Rainforest and a battle to maintain one's reputation. What I do hope that occurs is a good, honest difference of opinions that is based on experience and expertise, which both growers possess, as opposed to a defense of one's honor.
Joel
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Post by rainforest on Nov 14, 2008 17:12:19 GMT -10
Thank you Joel, well said. Again, if you read my postings I am just speculating the possibilities since we are all in the dark about its origins one can only speculate and whether we do it privately or openly the same ideas and thoughts come to mind. I am very vocal and outspoken, but that is how changes can occur in the status quo. My past discussions about hybrids vs species has spun so much controversy that we are seeing results from these posts. I recall someone stating that he disliked seeing so much discussion of hybrids plastering the threads that today that same person sells hybrids. Imagine that! Change occurs from an outspoken voice. The discussion regarding seed grown vs tc has spun a lot of thought and I bet we will be seeing more seed grown originals because of these kind of threads. If nobody had ever discussed the poor gene pool about tc clones would we be any different today then we were let's say five years ago? probably not. Today more people are aware about the virtues of seed grown and because of that growers must also consider doing more seed originals.
Dave Evans wrote: But Dave, prior to BE selling tc copies, they offered seed grown originals for a whopping $25 each (in lots of 50 or more) with three leaves and very tiny green pitchers.(ws) and many people including myself purchased large volumes. I seriously doubt that TP purchased as many as I have, yet he was able to get 3 black individuals from plants that were less than a year old. I find that very strange since many of mine didn't show any color characteristics either way until the plants got to be a rather larger sized plant. Plus the many who did purchase them even from TP and others didn't have colors shown until much much later on. I wish I was a psychic grower who could see the seedling's color before they are shown.
So for the record, Tony's black truncatas originated from the same seed lot that the Pasian truncatas all came from.
The forums should be a lively debate, if we all agreed then we'd all be like the Jones's!
M
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Dave Evans
Nobiles
dpevans_at_rci.rutgers.edu
Posts: 490
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Post by Dave Evans on Nov 14, 2008 18:10:36 GMT -10
All the everybodies I know have been doing it this way the whole time. Nobody thinks TC has no faults--especially the people who do it. Seed grown originals have been coming out of our greenhouses for a long time, infact just about the entire history of Nepenthes in cultivation. I think your views are a bit warped--you take one little sound bit and blow it up in some controversy where there actually isn't any. Can't you just ask questions when you don't know something, like a normal person?
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Post by nepsaroundthehouse on Nov 15, 2008 4:01:26 GMT -10
One of my curiosities about the available Nepenthes out there is the difference in vigor. I'll preface my thoughts with my growing conditions are atypical and that's a huge variable to the success of certain Nepenthes. Take the "tc" Neps most currently available. They come from BE and AW primarily. Some species have a lot of clones, and others only have a few. For me to be successful with them it helps when someone else has grown them to about 6-8 inches before I can put them outdoors. Rooted cuttings from larger plants are better because that plant has made it to adulthood and is thus more vigorous ( I hope!). So I wonder if it's because a certain clone in the tc pool is more vigorous and stronger at adapting to my harsher growing conditions than another clone that might be weaker and thus can't adapt? Or is there something in the process of "tc" that alters the makeup of that Nepenthes making it weaker over time?
I do know that seed grown offerings vary in vigor as well. Some clones take off while others lag behind. EP offers seed grown stuff and some of the first offerings are larger seedlings that are ahead of slower growing ones. So I'm wondering if the offerings of seed grown plants that are known to be vigorous compared to some slower growing ones adapt better to my conditions? On the surface that would seem to make sense. I would imagine that a weak seed grown Nepenthes is just as weak as one from tc. What would be real nice would be to know what clones have been grown out to adulthood and are vigorous as opposed to some clones that are weaker and thus should be avoided.
J
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